[gwnn]

You seem to assume a lot about Antraxxx's system. You seem to assume that he will not double with a 2434 13-count. I don't see how you read that anywhere. I can't find it.

This would be the perfect time to clear this up Antraxxx, what is your bid with

Kx
Axxx
QJx
Kxxx

playing these negative doubles by opener?

[Antraxxx]

"my system" is the subset of SAYC I've managed to learn so far. As opener after three passes and then 1♣-(p)-1♦-(1♠) I would bid 1NT here.

[gwnn]

so when do you double? i dont get it anymore.

[han]

Perhaps before deciding what to bid, it should first be clarified what the double shows.

If you bid suits up the line over a 1C opening (so that you also respond 1D with xxx Axxx KQxx xx) then I prefer that this double shows 4 hearts. It does not show extra values or an unbalanced hand. For example, opener might double 1S with Kxx AQxx xx KQxx. Clearly opposite that hand, we want to be in 1NT. With LHO having bid spades, it probably doesn't matter who declares 1NT.

The fact that 1S was not raised suggests that partner holds 3 spades. That is another reason to bid 1NT. Even if you don't have a spade stopper, 1NT may be the best contract.

In general, a good guideline is that the more you are under pressure, the more you might want to bid 1NT without a stopper, and the more partner should not play you for a stopper. Here are you forced to bid (because partner doubled) so it should be normal to bid 1NT without a stopper.

[the_dude]

When you have no bid that describes your hand, you have to choose the least damaging lie.

Since spades weren't raised, 1NT is probably the right contract, and whatever spade honors your partner holds are over the spade bidder. It shouldn't be too bad. And you are at the top of your bid, so even if spades run you will likely make it anyway.

This hand is too weak for 2♠ imho.

[Stephen Tu]

Antraxxx, on 2011-February-08, 05:09, said:

I was taught to never ever bid NT without a stopper in the opponents' suit(s). It made a lot of sense at the time (clearly you don't want to end up in an NT game without a stopper in the suit they're very likely to lead, right?). I really and honestly don't understand how opener can tell whether or not my NT includes a stopper or not (and thus know when to avoid 3NT). I have no doubt there are ways, but I never learned them.

You try not to bid NT without a stopper -- when there are reasonable alternative calls, or if passing is reasonable. In these situations where partner has doubled, and passing for penalties is insane, and other bids are unpalatable, 1nt is often your best shot, even without stopper. This is because:
- partner may have stopper, esp. since your RHO didn't raise
- at this point you are only in one, even if they run 5 (or 6!) tricks in the suit, you aren't down yet!
- it might well be the best partial double dummy, and it's the only way to bid it at this point. As others have mentioned, opener with a spade stopper and 4 hearts, playing an up-the-line style, should probably double in preference to bidding 1nt, so you can reach 2h when responder does have 4 hearts, rather than 1nt.

In these types of auctions where partner may have bid 1nt as least of evils, without stop, then later in the auction you can cue bid to see if partner really has a stop; without a stop partner should bid something else (usu preference to opener's 1st suit), and you avoid 3nt.

[mike777]

Antraxxx, on 2011-February-07, 01:34, said:

---

Was 1♦ the right call? (I was hoping partner would be the one to declare NT)
What now?

good thread with good posts.

I prefer a simple 1nt response not 1d with 4333 aND TEN HCP AND OPP SILENT HOW BAD CAN THIS BE....I prefer x here would be support x showing 3d.

I think 1nt here should be 8-10 btw. With less i respond 1d.

--

side note for me responder cannot have 4h or 4s here.

[Antraxxx]

This has been enlightening. Thanks everyone for your answers.
For the curious, at the table I invented a 3♣ bid which I hoped would make sense - it meant to show I'm too strong for 2♣, have no stopper for NT, don't have four heart support and don't have a five card or longer diamond suit. In my head it made sense, however when it was passed out partner found it difficult to make with Qxx clubs opposite my JT9. Everyone else were on the good 3NT (partner had AQxx♠)

[gwnn]

So... What did partner have??

[Antraxxx]

Partner's exact hand:

---

I didn't want to show his hand because he probably misbid worse than I have, and I was more interested in what I could've done better. Checking the hand again, I see that people didn't really end up in 3NT, I was confused with another hand from the same session where we missed an easy 3NT.

[gwnn]

looks like 1NT was the winning bid

and it definitely looks like you and your partner have different ideas on how often you should x with 4 hearts.

[Antraxxx]

Yeah, we'll definitely discuss it at length - I told him about the stopperless 1NT bid, we agreed it sounds reasonable, and then during last evening's session he made the same negative double (auction was 1♣-(p)-1♦-(1♥)-x) this time showing a three card spade suit!
So yeah, we clearly should work out what double means over opponents' interference

[edit]
As far as when to double and when to overcall 1NT, we're playing in MP tournaments so if 1NT looks feasible, that's probably where we want to be. Of course, now that we allow a stopperless NT, it's probably better to always show four hearts if you have a non-positional stopper, I think.