[helene_t]

MP, w/w
North: xx-Jxxx-AKJxx-xx
South: x--Ax---QTxx---AKQJxx

N....E...S...W
p....2♠.3♣-3♠
dbl..p...4♦-a.p.

Makes +2. For some weird reason it was only slightly below 50%.

Agree with 3♣? If not, would you prefer dbl or 3♠?

Agree with the responsive double?

Is 4♦ forcing? In any case, would you have bid 4♦ with the south hand? And would you have raised diamonds with the north hand?

[mtvesuvius]

None of 4♣/4♦/X are GF, but it wouldn't let me select none of them. The one that is the most forward going IMO is 4♦...

Anyway, I agree with 3♣, and would bid 4N over the double

[Fluffy]

3♣ and double are clear IMO, 4♦ i non forcing, hence an underbid, 4NT as adam suggests seems the best, also bidding 5♣ is a strong alternative and I might pick it without ♦10

[Cyberyeti]

What Fluffy said, none of the first lot are GF so I can't vote in the poll.

[helene_t]

Cyberyeti, on 2011-January-20, 18:37, said:

What Fluffy said, none of the first lot are GF so I can't vote in the poll.

Yes you can. It's a multi-choice poll, if you answer no to all of them you just dont check any of them. Just check the round things about what you would do.

[Trinidad]

helene_t, on 2011-January-21, 01:49, said:

Yes you can. It's a multi-choice poll, if you answer no to all of them you just dont check any of them. Just check the round things about what you would do.

Unfortunately, the software seems to think that not checking (intended to mean 'NO' to each question) means that you didn't answer the question.

Anyway, my answers:
1) None of these bids are GF.
2) North should double
3) South should bid 4NT to force to game and show his 46 in the minors.

Rik

[Lurpoa]

helene_t, on 2011-January-20, 15:13, said:

MP, w/w
North: xx-Jxxx-AKJxx-xx
South: x--Ax---QTxx---AKQJxx

N....E...S...W
p....2♠.3♣-3♠
dbl..p...4♦-a.p.

Makes +2. For some weird reason it was only slightly below 50%.

Agree with 3♣? If not, would you prefer dbl or 3♠?

Agree with the responsive double?

Is 4♦ forcing? In any case, would you have bid 4♦ with the south hand? And would you have raised diamonds with the north hand?

(I guess 2S=weak)
Any reason not to play N's double for penalty ?

[awm]

Lurpoa, on 2011-January-21, 02:53, said:

(I guess 2S=weak)
Any reason not to play N's double for penalty ?

Yes...

When the opponents bid and raise a suit, you will rarely (if ever) hold a penalty double. In contrast, it is quite common to hold a hand where you want to show the other two suits (as here) or a hand with general values where you might beat their contract despite the lack of a trump stack, but also might do better making a game of your own.

It's common to play doubles in this sort of sequence as responsive -- basically general values with some interest in the unbid suits (especially unbid major). Yes, this means you occasionally get a bad result when you hold a "penalty double" and you have to pass (or maybe bid 3NT). But the odds of that hand are so low.... responsive doubles are expert standard these days in low level "they bid-and-raise" auctions like this one, and are increasingly commonly played in somewhat higher-level sequences as well.

[FrancesHinden]

Trinidad, on 2011-January-21, 02:21, said:

Unfortunately, the software seems to think that not checking (intended to mean 'NO' to each question) means that you didn't answer the question.

Anyway, my answers:
1) None of these bids are GF.
2) North should double
3) South should bid 4NT to force to game and show his 46 in the minors.

Rik

Agree with all of this (including inability to vote)

[kenberg]

No game forcing bid has been made, I would have chosen 5♦ instead of 4♦. I can see the logic of 4NT but I have more than I might have had for 3♣, I expect diamonds in partner's hand so I bid 5♦ with the thought that we can discuss science later.

Added thought: Perhaps the responsive double does not 100% promise diamonds. Maybe it is a try for 4♥ with a back up of 5♣. If so, then I think 4♦ must be forcing. If partner has diamonds, fine, we will play 5♦. If not, then he needs to get us out of 4♦ which will inevitably lead to him bidding a game somewhere. In short, if the responsive double does not promise diamonds then it promises game values somewhere since 4♦ will often be bid over the X and there we are.


So, I guess we need to know whether X does or does not promise diamonds. If it does, I bid 5♦. If it does not, I bid a forcing 4♦.

[MrAce]

What Adam said.

I agree with 3♣ and i would bid 4 nt now. Double by partner is not necessarily ♥+♦ for me.

Should pd pass with;

xxx KQxxx AJx xx ?

Or should he raise with xxx KQxxx Ax xxx ?

How about xxx KQx AJxxx xx ?

There are also cases when pd has 4 small ♠, unlike North American style, europeans opens weak 2 a lot with 5 cards and/or raises with 2 cards and very unpredictable.

My point is, DBL can be still card showing, mostly indicates ♥ suit or both ♥+♦ but i wouldnt count on it and bid 5♦ and leave 5♣ behind.

[whereagles]

1. Lacking specific agreements, I'd say North's dbl is not GF. After all, if South rebids 4♣, North has a clear pass.

2. Dbl by North over 3♠ seems normal.

3. Over dbl South should bid more than 4♦ (unless that's forcing by agreement). It's impossible to keycard for diamonds now, so I'd just blast 5♦. Not 6 because North's hand is sort of magical - not your usual cup of tea.

[pirate22]

helene_t, on 2011-January-20, 15:13, said:

MP, w/w
North: xx-Jxxx-AKJxx-xx
South: x--Ax---QTxx---AKQJxx

N....E...S...W
p....2♠.3♣-3♠
dbl..p...4♦-a.p.

Makes +2. For some weird reason it was only slightly below 50%.

Agree with 3♣? If not, would you prefer dbl or 3♠?

Agree with the responsive double?

Is 4♦ forcing? In any case, would you have bid 4♦ with the south hand? And would you have raised diamonds with the north hand?

[pirate22]

one has to have a defence to opps weak two's as follows.over 2h/2s
partner bids his best /tolerance minor, guarenteeing min 4 cards other major
if one is minor suited bid 2n/t-as in this case.{2n/t has no major}
if one is 5/6 card suit other major bid it.
if one has values and a stopper in the weak 2 just x {general take out}
if one is 5/6 in minor overcall it.

[Lurpoa]

awm, on 2011-January-21, 10:18, said:

Yes...

When the opponents bid and raise a suit, you will rarely (if ever) hold a penalty double. In contrast, it is quite common to hold a hand where you want to show the other two suits (as here) or a hand with general values where you might beat their contract despite the lack of a trump stack, but also might do better making a game of your own.

It's common to play doubles in this sort of sequence as responsive -- basically general values with some interest in the unbid suits (especially unbid major). Yes, this means you occasionally get a bad result when you hold a "penalty double" and you have to pass (or maybe bid 3NT). But the odds of that hand are so low.... responsive doubles are expert standard these days in low level "they bid-and-raise" auctions like this one, and are increasingly commonly played in somewhat higher-level sequences as well.

This is not my definition of a Responsive Double. (A responsive double is after a T/O double by partner.) I agree however with your argumentation. Maybe (?) you could call such a double Competitive or Cooperative (with all te agreements going with those).

It might be common, but without any agreements with partner, i wouldn't consider such a double automatically as T/O. And with all sympathy I have for your competitive viewpoint, there are circumstances in which, and opponents against who, me and partner want to have the double of 3S availble for penalty.

[Zelandakh]

pirate22, on 2011-January-23, 19:18, said:

one has to have a defence to opps weak two's as follows.over 2h/2s
partner bids his best /tolerance minor, guarenteeing min 4 cards other major
if one is minor suited bid 2n/t-as in this case.{2n/t has no major}
if one is 5/6 card suit other major bid it.
if one has values and a stopper in the weak 2 just x {general take out}
if one is 5/6 in minor overcall it.

If I read this right the defence is (for 2S opening)

Bid..pirate defence (equivalent in Standard)
============================================
X = 15+ with spade stopper (2NT or higher NT call)
2N = C or D or both (3m or 3S)
3C = C + H (X or 4C)
3D = D + H (X or 4D)
3H = natural overcall (also 3H)
4m = natural overcall (3m)

Looking over this it seems you have a small potential gain on weakish minor 2-suiters but losses elsewhere. I am interested why you regard this defence as significantly better than the more usual approach of a takeout double and Leaping Michaels.

[bluecalm]

Quote

Anyway, my answers:
1) None of these bids are GF.
2) North should double
3) South should bid 4NT to force to game and show his 46 in the minors.

I am not sure about 4♦.
I see the point of playing it as NF (xx Ax AQTx A6xxx, and what we are to bid if not NF 4♦ ?)
On the other hand partner didn't promise 4♦ imo and could've doubled with say:
Jxx AQxxx Kx xxx hoping we can bid either 3NT or 4♥ (what else he is supposed to do ? or with 3-4-2-4 for that matter)

I tend to think 4♦ should be forcing here.

EDIT: polled my friends, thought more about it and now I believe you guys are right and 4D should be not forcing.