[jtfanclub]

The_Hog, on Sep 4 2004, 09:27 PM, said:

JT you have missed the point again. If 1H is a random overcall then it is a random overcall. If it has a specific meaning then that specific meaning needs to be divulged.

I understand that...that's why I distinguished between a fert- a bid required by the system, and a pseudofert, a bid which actually has meaning (even if to deny certain holdings) but is described the same way.

[nige1]

I regularly consult Precision in the 90s by Barry Rigal (although I find the terce Symmetic Relay section too hard to understand). I also recommend the succinct and stylish Precisison Bidding and Precision Play by Terence Reese

[EricK]

The_Hog, on Sep 5 2004, 02:27 AM, said:

JT you have missed the point again. If 1H is a random overcall then it is a random overcall. If it has a specific meaning then that specific meaning needs to be divulged. When we played 1H = 13 cards pd the overcaller could literally have anything. I don't know why you describe the bid as a fert, because that does have a specified point range.
Destructive methods against a big C work well as your side is unlikely to have game.

But do most people who say they play that eg a 1♠ overcall show anything really do that ?

In other words, are there any hands where they would sometimes overcall 1♦ (with whatever precise meaning that had) but sometimes with the exact same hand and exact same vulnerability etc overcall 1♠?

Eric

[hrothgar]

keylime, on Sep 4 2004, 08:31 AM, said:

Speaking of defenses over a strong club, almost forgot---there is a movement afoot from the ACBL about regulation of these items for the GCC (General Convention Chart). Any thoughts?

Personally, I think that this has very little to do with protecting Strong Club players. I have, however, noticed that players have started adopting very aggressive overcall systems over strong 2♣ opening bids.

For what its worth, I very much disapprove of limiting what competitive bidding structures players can adopt over strong club systems

[Free]

I always play a defense against strong 1♣ which anyone might hate. Basicly, it all started with bidding 1♠ with less than 4 ♠s, and passing with at least 4 ♠s. This brought up some problems (no pass available when V for example) so I made some changes so I could still keep that 1♠ overcall. Since it comes up A LOT, it's a nice tool.
So I sacrificed the 1♥ overcall to show 4+ ♠s (and also less than 4 ♥s ). Not a real loss or gain for the overcall, but some nice stuff for our partner. So basicly I can bid ANY hand with 3 bids: 1♥, 1♠ and 1NT (includes 44+M). Even 4333's can be bid this way All other bids have some meaning to, but it doesn't mean we don't have all these handtypes. Just an example: We have 6 ♥s and 1♠. We can bid 1♠, 2♥, 3♥ or even 4♥. Bidding 1♠ means 0-3 ♠s, and that's it.

Playing 1♠=any 13 cards is just a similar way to be able to intervene with ANY hand at 1-level. You're free to chose if you'll bid 1♠ or another bid which tells your story, so basicly you just don't know anything at all, that's it... Even if you know what the other bids mean, overcaller can still have them.

I once overcalled 1♠ (promissing any hand with 0-3♠s) on something like x-AJx-AQxxxx-xxx. Our opps ended up too high and we had a good score. If I would've bid 3♦ or so, I would've been screwed bigtime, since my partner had absolutely nothing! If I passed, they would've found their right contract.

[luke warm]

The_Hog, on Sep 5 2004, 01:56 AM, said:

"They show 13 cards- unless you know what the other bids they could have made meant."

Tough luck! Destructive overcalls showing 13 cards are totally reasonable imo. You play the big C system you should be able to cope with any defence. You can always ask what their other bids would have meant. (And before you start, I am a fan of big C).

i couldn't agree more, ron... my feeling is, if someone wants to play a system then that person must be prepared for defenses *to* that system... and if these defenses happen to be destructive, so be it... that's why the penalty double exists

[DenisO]

ArcLight, on Aug 30 2004, 08:56 PM, said:

I would like to learn Precision.  On www.amazon.com I found 2 books:

Precision Today: Your Guide To Learning The System  by David Berkowitz

Precision in the 90s by Barry Rigal

Goren's (edited by Robert B Ewen) "Precision system of Contract Bridge Bidding" is a good introduction to the system and has lots of example hands.

Denis