[TWO4BRIDGE]

the hog, on 2011-January-20, 23:58, said:

That is correct; however it ignores what would happen if the hand was a little different and the bidding proceeded:
1D 2C
2S

Now 2S is a reverse and shows significantly more values than a 9 count.

This is to what I assume Don was alluding.

correct.

Also, in the auction below, Responder will think Opener is stronger because the above auction "could have occurred " :

1D - 1H
1S - 2C!
2S = shows either a 4/4 or a 5/6 ... it takes another Sp bid to clarify ( Hardy's " least plausible rebid " concept) when Opener ( after a 4th Suit GF ) can't :

a) can't show 3 cards Hts (2H )
b ) can't show a 4th suit stop ( 2NT )
c) can't show 4 cards in the 4th suit ( 3C )
d) can't show extra length in his 1st suit ( 3D )

After:
2S - 2NT
3S ( 5s/6d ) - ?? ( Does Responder just bid 4S or go nuts ? thinking Opener has implied "reverse strength" )

[gwnn]

It depends on your system.

[655321]

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2011-January-21, 04:17, said:

Also, in the auction below, Responder will think Opener is stronger because the above auction "could have occurred " :

1D - 1H
1S - 2C!
2S = shows either a 4/4 or a 5/6 ... it takes another Sp bid to clarify ( Hardy's " least plausible rebid " concept) when Opener ( after a 4th Suit GF ) can't :

a) can't show 3 cards Hts (2H )
b ) can't show a 4th suit stop ( 2NT )
c) can't show 4 cards in the 4th suit ( 3C )
d) can't show extra length in his 1st suit ( 3D )

After:
2S - 2NT
3S ( 5s/6d ) - ?? ( Does Responder just bid 4S or go nuts ? thinking Opener has implied "reverse strength" )

twofer, 2♠ shows 5 spades and 6 diamonds, it doesn't show 4/4. If you want to play a gadget here instead, good for you, however your posts generally read as though you believe that whatever gadget you decide to play in any auction is the standard meaning for the bid. Very simple auction, opener bid spades twice to show 5 spades. He opened 1♦ so his diamonds are longer than his spades. He did not reverse so he hasn't promised reversing values. Easy game.

[kenberg]

I probably would open the hand with 1♠.
Yesterday I had a 6D-5S hand with two stiffs that I opened 1♦. Partner, surprisingly, responded 1♠. RKC showed that he held one keycard and the queen of spades so I bid 6♠. The opponents took their ace of hearts and partner claimed. I don't recall the exact hand but the point is that when I opened 1♦ I felt I had a hand where I was prepared to compete to 4♠ pretty much on my own. If the bidding had gone 1♦-(1♥)-pass-(4♥) my next call would be 4♠.

It's somewhat unusual for the opponents to stay out of the auction when you have this much shape and modest values. I usually figure that they will be getting into it one way or the other, and that influences my choice. Here I would open 1♠ and if partner cannot support spades I'll go quietly. Yes we could be missing a good diamond sacrifice against their 4♥ contract but I think it will usually be best, with this very modest hand, to get my spade bid in now. I am influenced by the modest nature of the six card diamond suit.

As to getting to the right contract, opening this at all apparently is going to cause a problem. You say ten tricks were made in spades at one table. Anything might happen at one table, I gather nine tricks is usually the limit. As your auction went, I guess that after 2♣ you are on an unstoppable path to 4♠ if you rebid 2♠. But opening 1♠ may well get you there as well. If partner has three spades and enough to bid 2♣ in the current auction, he probably would take you to 4♠ if you open 1♠. I think this could be written off to bad luck. Apparently your hands fit really badly (which also explains why the opponents were not in the auction) except for the eight card spade fit and so you come up short on tricks. This sort of thing happens.

One more thing: Yesterday I opened 1♠ with an 11 count. The spades were AKQxx and I had a stiff heart. Partner bid a game forcing 2♥. Uh oh. My diamonds were four to the ten and my hand was weak so I rebid 2♠. Partner rebid 2NT. I don't like this at all but I cannot pass. I raised to 3NT, which, as expected, had no play. Looking to the long term, this has to be done. I opened, partner made a gf bid, he is relying on me to not pass. Don't pass the 2♥ no matter what you think of your prospects or how much you regret opening the hand.

[TylerE]

1♠, because if the auction starts 1♦-1NT I'm hating life.

[barmar]

Opponent in a BBO ACBL Indy this afternoon was dealt QTxxx - AJTxxxx A. He opened 1♠ in 4th seat, and over responder's 1NT he jumped to 5♦. He got a very unhelpful dummy: xx AQxxx xx Qxxx. We set it 1, although perfect defense can set it 2.

The players that got the tops were the ones that never bid their spades at all, they were in 3♦+1.

But that's just one hand, it doesn't prove anything in general.

[wickedbid1]

It's a different situation when u r 5M, 7+m. I think it is often okay to lie to pard by one card, in a "prepared bid" worse case scenario style, if u hav not discussed this issue in advance, same as with opening 1 di with 4 di & 5 cl, but not 6+ clubs.

One factor that enters in with these more extreme shapes is, when we end up at game or slam level in the slightly shorter trump suit because of pards preference bid, it will often go off with a ruff on the first or second trick if our "real" fit is two cards longer than where we settle. Not rolling out of control on weak hands or letting pard take an incorrect inference of good quality in our original minor suit are the more important considerations when we hav 5M, 6m, i think.

With the sample hand given, i think pass is best, because it is difficult to deal with a two club response and a 1nt response if u bid a di first, and it is difficult to deal with a two hrt response and a three nt response if u bid a sp first.

if my di were clubs, i think a 1 club bid would be fine with this. A hair stronger, i would be happy to bid 1 sp with the given shape.

i would not bid 1 di with this shape unless i definitely had the values to support the THREE bids needed to complete my story if pard has a constructive hand.

There are many situations where it would be great to hav had treatment discussion in advance, but this is not practical playing online. So my best advice is concentrate on developing a style that is likely to get yr side to a playable contract, even if som pards might freak out on occasion when it is revealed u don't hav exactly what they were expecting.