[jillybean]

Scoring: MP

1♦,double,?

---

Hi, learning SAYC/BBO Basic
How do I bid this. 1♥ promises 5 after a double (I think) which is stretching the truth a bit far, 2♦ isn't forcing...
We should be in ♦ or NT, should I double to get rebid from partner ?

Thanks,
jillybean

[Free]

With this vulnerability, it's no use to penalize opps, so I'll just bid to game. It seems like the limit of the hand is game, slam is quite far away. In MP's, the most attractive game is 3NT, which is what I want us to play.

The question is: do I want to play, or is it better that partner plays this? Since I have a lot of tens, I think I'm in a good position to play myself. I'll just bid 3NT.

[pclayton]

jillybean2, on Aug 30 2004, 12:07 PM, said:

Scoring: MP

1♦,double,?

---

Hi, learning SAYC/BBO Basic
How do I bid this. 1♥ promises 5 after a double (I think) which is stretching the truth a bit far, 2♦ isn't forcing...
We should be in ♦ or NT, can I double to get rebid from partner ?

Thanks,
jillybean

While I would like the strong hand on lead here, I can't manoever easily here.

Three choices:

3N - To play. Controls are a little too good, and we probably have a 9 card + diamond fit. Wouldn't take a lot to make 6♦.

Redouble - possible, but I don't like it, because LHO gets to sneak in a suit where he has length; ostensibly spades.

2N - limit or better raise in diamonds. If pard has the right controls, he may cooperate in looking for a slam. The only thing I don't like about it is that it potentially wrong sides the NT.

Three level transfers anyone?

[inquiry]

I am NOT fond of redouble with a fit. But playing standard, you are in a little of a pickle here. I, like phil, would like very much for partner with Qxx of spades to play notrump, but with Qx of spades, I think I don't want to play notrump, even at matchpoints, unless partner has extras. So, I would start with an atypical REDBL (like phil, I play 2NT as good raise or better with most partners, but with misho I reverse that.. .we play 2NT here as dramatic weak support or GAME FORCING support, to be clarified later). If parnter wacks spade runout, I will play 3NT, if not, I will cue-bid spades, trying to get into notrump and or slam.

But I am not thrilled with redbl. For what it is worth, and this is definately not material for beginners, misho and I play 1♠ here as balanced hand or transfer to clubs. If partner bids 1NT, I have gotten the hand transfered to him in NT. If he bids 3C, I will bid 2H n now (again aiming at notrump, and forcing). Not exactly 3 level transfers, we do it at a lower level.

Ben

[luke warm]

since free is right that 3NT is probably the best contract, what i'm saying now is most probably wrong... i'd bid 4D rkc, since i really want a diamond slam

1S is an option, since it's forcing and takes things slower (a good op on your left would still bid 2S with spades tho)... the redouble is nice here, tho i'd never ever do that with a major superfit

[hrothgar]

Redouble is correct on values, but questionable with this good a fit.
3NT is also right on values, but could run into trouble on a Spade lead.

I'm going to bid 1♠ and then raise a 1NT rebid to 3N...

[the hog]

Jimmy, I think that you would find most play 1D (x) 4D as pre emptive, not KC.

Good hand for inverted ms still on after a X, but most don't play that either. Two options -
3N which we play as an excellent D raise; with a suitable hand opener may move.
XX pretty much for the same reasons as Ben.
Try xx on this hand.

[luke warm]

yeah ron, that's usually true... i play any jump to 4m is rkc tho, but i grant it might be better to play it as preemptive

and richard bid 1S also, so at least i wasn't nuts to mention it

[EricK]

If I were playing in a new/pick-up partnership then I would just bid 3NT. It is right on values, and I doubt we would be able to exchange the correct information to bid a ♦ slam with any confidence.

I don't like XX on any hand with a fit, nor do I like bidding a major suit I don't have.

Does BBO basic or SAYC play 1♦ (X) 2NT as natural or as some sort of ♦ raise? If the latter then that is a good start for exploring a ♦ slam. If partner simply bids 3♦ as a sign off, you can bid 3NT now and partner will have a fair idea of your hand (or think you have forgotten the system ).

If 2NT would be natural, then, playing with an understanding partner, the only sensible way I can see of exploring for a ♦ slam is to pass here. Opps are in a forcing auction so you can afford to pass. Then you will almost certainly have a chance to cue bid the opp's suit to get more info from partner. Since LHO has about 0-4 points, and likely nearer the lower end, I am not really worried that he can give any useful information to his partner.

Eric

[pclayton]

I discussed the concept of three level transfers with Chris Larsen last night. He mentioned as long as 1♠ is a transfer to NT, you can bid it here and raise 1N to 3. No need for the 3 level jumps - although it does right-side a lot of the hands, in exchange for the opps getting ina lead directing dbl.

[inquiry]

pclayton, on Aug 31 2004, 01:30 PM, said:

I discussed the concept of three level transfers with Chris Larsen last night. He mentioned as long as 1♠ is a transfer to NT, you can bid it here and raise 1N to 3. No need for the 3 level jumps - although it does right-side a lot of the hands, in exchange for the opps getting ina lead directing dbl.

Misho and I use 1♠ over the double to cover a variety of hands (((((WARNING = CONTINUATION OF PHIL's POINT -- NOT APPRORIATE FOR BEGINNERS)))))

One type of hand is one where you would bid Notrump naturally but too strong for 1NT (which is also natural). The second is a hand with clubs (the unbid minor, so if partner had opened 1C, then 1♠ would be NT hand strong, or diamonds).

This gives us a couple of chances..

Partner can bid 1NT with the right hand and weak.
PArtner can bid 2C with a suit-oriented hand and weakish (not forcing)
Partner can rebid 2D - no club support, long diamonds, not suitable for NT.
Partner can get creative

Over 1NT by partner, 2♣ and 2♦ by us is still xyz.... as is 2Nt (transfer to 3♣.

So we can have our cake and eat it here too... Imagine, 1D-(x)-1S-(pass and opponents passing all for now) -1N - 2D (game force) - can show diamond support next and mild slam try. Easy.

Ben

[flytoox]

just bid 2N, jordan raise, leave it to pd decide whether we carry on or stop at 3N.

hongjun

[Free]

Jordan is only after openings in a Major suit, not on minors I think...

[flytoox]

Free, on Aug 31 2004, 07:59 PM, said:

Jordan is only after openings in a Major suit, not on minors I think...

No,see Mike Lawrence's complete guide to contested auction, though you can choose to use it for major only.

As lawrence said, a better treatment is to play 1d-x-3d as good riase, and 1d-x-2n as bad preemptive raise.

[inquiry]

flytoox, on Aug 31 2004, 04:05 PM, said:

Free, on Aug 31 2004, 07:59 PM, said:

Jordan is only after openings in a Major suit, not on minors I think...

No,see Mike Lawrence's complete guide to contested auction, though you can choose to use it for major only.

As lawrence said, a better treatment is to play 1d-x-3d as good riase, and 1d-x-2n as bad preemptive raise.

Mike has it half right... see my first reply where I said...

Quote

I play 2NT as good raise or better with most partners, but with misho I reverse that.. .we play 2NT here as dramatic weak support or GAME FORCING support, to be clarified later

You can sneak game force raise in with the TRUELY weak riase.. without harm....

[flytoox]

inquiry, on Aug 31 2004, 08:17 PM, said:

You can sneak game force raise in with the TRUELY weak riase.. without harm....

Agree here. I actually didnt see ur post but did consider this possibility, this is basically same as in ur 1M-2N-3c, either min or slam interest.

[Rado]

Hi Jilly and all,

Interesting position you've posted.
First of all after 1♦-DBL - 1♥/♠ remain 4+ cards and forcing 1 round:-)
Back to the topic if no other forcing bids agreed better start with RDBL and next bid 2/3♦ to show FG values with ♦ fit. This sequence will place the NT right side and/or will discover possible slam or 5♦. Jumping directly to 3NT seems acceptable but sometimes might be wrong.
In case you play 1♦-pass-2♦ as F1 (inverted) there is much to say to keep same after 1♦-DBL
With some of my regular partners we play 1m-DBL-2m as F1 which fits perfectly for such situations
Best regards
Rado