[Antraxxx]

Currently I play that 2♦♥♠ are "weak", meaning 6-9 HCP, a six-card suit headed by some honour cards, no four card major / void / two aces. 3 anything is the same except with a 7 card suit. Is the difference really supposed to be just the one card? Or are there other/less requirements for 3 compared to 2?
If so, isn't this a terrible waste of bids for a relatively minor distinction?

[cherdano]

The difference between having 6 trumps and seven trumps is big. It means one more trick! Sometimes even two (imagine the suit is 7-2-2-2 around the table instead of 6-3-2-2)! One trick is a big difference (imagine being -200 instead of -500 or +140 instead of -100). Moreover, it's a trick you will only take when you are declaring, not when you are defending, so it makes the hand much more suitable for preempting.

[Antraxxx]

Thanks. So assuming I understood correctly (same requirements and it's worth having two bids to state exactly how many trumps you have), some follow up questions:
a ) How come people sometimes open weak 2 with a 5 card suit? Would they open a weak 3 with a six-card suit under the same circumstances?
b ) Is the importance of the extra trump reflected somewhere else in the bidding? Let's assume a non competitive auction. Partner opens 1♠. With balanced 6 HCP and 3 spades, I reply 2♠. But with balanced 6 HCP and 4 spades I still reply 2♠, no?

[P_Marlowe]

Antraxxx, on 2011-January-10, 00:22, said:

Thanks. So assuming I understood correctly (same requirements and it's worth having two bids to state exactly how many trumps you have), some follow up questions:
a ) How come people sometimes open weak 2 with a 5 card suit? Would they open a weak 3 with a six-card suit under the same circumstances?
b ) Is the importance of the extra trump reflected somewhere else in the bidding? Let's assume a non competitive auction. Partner opens 1♠. With balanced 6 HCP and 3 spades, I reply 2♠. But with balanced 6 HCP and 4 spades I still reply 2♠, no?

Hi,

a] The difference between the 2 and the 3 level is a trick, similar, the difference between nonvulnerable and being
vulnerable is also a trick, going down more doubled is push.
And so is the relatvie difference in vulnerability, if we are green, they are red, they need to beat us by two add.
tricks to show a profit.

The consequence is, that you may decide, that the right circumstances make it worthwhile to open a weak two with just
5 cards, say we are green and they are red.

If you are a little bit more flexible with regards to length you are also reducing the information the opponents
gains from your openings, ..., you are also reducing the infomrmation partner receives.
So if partner can still hold the best hand, the hand you show in the bidding and the hand you hold should be in sync,
if partner told you, that he has nothing, than you have more freedom. (*)

b] Add. trump length is a positive factor, being balanced is a neg. factor, if you are bal. you dont have a lot of
ruffing power.
(*) If partner has told you, he has nothing, most of the time, the only thing you are interested in hearing from him is,
if he has add. unexpected trump length.
With kind regards
Marlowe

[stephtu]

Antraxxx, on 2011-January-10, 00:22, said:

Thanks. So assuming I understood correctly (same requirements and it's worth having two bids to state exactly how many trumps you have), some follow up questions:
a ) How come people sometimes open weak 2 with a 5 card suit? Would they open a weak 3 with a six-card suit under the same circumstances?
b ) Is the importance of the extra trump reflected somewhere else in the bidding? Let's assume a non competitive auction. Partner opens 1♠. With balanced 6 HCP and 3 spades, I reply 2♠. But with balanced 6 HCP and 4 spades I still reply 2♠, no?

Besides the "one more trick" thing, regards to the "waste of bids" question, there is also the question of "what else would you propose using the bids for?". With good hands typically you want to save bidding room for exploring game/slam options, so normally you'd want these preempts to be "bad" hands, with safety from playing strength provided by the long good suit.

a) People who open on 5 cd suits are just going for greater frequency at the expense of greater risk. You pick up 5 cd suits much, much more often than 6 cd suits. Bidding over preempts is harder than bidding over passes, by preempting more often you give the opps more opportunities to misjudge. The greater risk is when you don't catch partner with support, and go down (doubled or not), with the opps not making anything, and occasionally when your preempt pushes them into some making game or something that they probably wouldn't have bid otherwise. With 5 cd suits your losses from penalties will be greater and more frequent, the question is whether your gains when the opps misjudge offsets this or not.

3rd seat favorable I would expect 5 cd preempts to be fairly frequent even from normally conservative players. Bergen disciple players would open 5 cds frequently in other vuls and seats.

Six card 3c preempts are somewhat common since weak 2 clubs isn't available. If you are playing 2d as multi or flannery, that would also increase 6 cd 3d preempts. But since 3 level is higher, with greater risk, people who are frequent 5 cd weak 2 openers don't necessarily open 3 with 6 cd preempts, many open 2 with both 5 and 6 cd suits (can use responses to 2nt to clarify).

b ) Unlike the extra trump in a long suit, which is often worth a full trick declaring, the extra trump in support is not worth a full trick, only a fraction of a trick. It can get you an extra trick from an extra ruff you might get, or making bad split less likely, saving you from a bad split, enabling some elimination and throw-in in the play. But this only happens a portion of the time, not all the time, thus only a fraction of a trick. And less often when you are balanced. The 4th trump is worth a point or two when unbalanced, and should cause you to promote borderline single raises into limit raises (9 hcp, good 8, with 4 cd support + stiff), but not with a balanced 6 count.

Also some people play "Bergen raises" where 4 cd support of 5 cd major normally makes a 3 level raise (jump raise = weak, 3c/3d used to show other ranges, another possibility is jump raise weak, use 2nt as LR+), though this is usually avoided on a flat 6. Balanced 8/9 is a different matter.

[Antraxxx]

Thanks for the excellent answers.

[kgr]

Antraxxx, on 2011-January-10, 00:22, said:

b ) Is the importance of the extra trump reflected somewhere else in the bidding? Let's assume a non competitive auction. Partner opens 1♠. With balanced 6 HCP and 3 spades, I reply 2♠. But with balanced 6 HCP and 4 spades I still reply 2♠, no?

After partner opens 1S or 1H, I play different responses with 3-card support than with 4-card Support.
The reasons for this difference are (...I think):
- The extra trump can be an extra trick and can be the difference between making 3 or 4.
- In competitive bidding it is important to know how many trumps you have together with your partner. The LOTT (Law of Total tricks) explains the relation between the total number of trumps and the total tricks that can be taken. This law is not 100% correct, but it is somehow useful to understand the answers to your questions. It will also make you understand why you can preempt higher with 7 trumps then with 6.
Google "LOTT law of total tricks" if you are interested to read more.