[mgoetze]

---

What have East and West shown, and what is West expected to do now?

[dicklont]

West 1354
East GF with 5+ hearts.

West must bid slam with 2 ♥ honours.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

let's see if I can get one of these 5-of-trump bids right.

2S! = 4th suit GF.
3H = should be 3 card Ht support... and more than likely short in Sp.

Since Responder could have gone RKC and didn't, he must have a VOID in one of the minors.

Eventho, 2S! was artificial, I don't think 5H is asking for a Sp Ctrl ( in view of partner's suspected shortness )...

...so,
5H = asking trump quality.

[Bbradley62]

 dicklont, on 2011-January-08, 17:02, said:

West 1354
East GF with 5+ hearts.

West must bid slam with 2 ♥ honours.

Agreed. Except... West could also be 0355 or 0364. In my old-fashioned world, since 2♠ was a game force, 4♥ would have been a sign-off by West (fast arrival) and 3♥ show some extras (though not enough for a jump-shift over 1♥), which should have helped East determine whether slam was an option.

[nigel_k]

Must West have three card support? What does he bid with xx Qx KJxxx AQxx?

I don't know what East's 5♥ means but here it seems like he can find out about trumps by using RKCB or can find a spade control or make a general invite by cue bidding. But my best guess would be that West should bid slam with second round spade control.

[JLOGIC]

Seems very complex actually. Here are my thoughts...

I think, over 3H, responder can bid 3S on hands that he wants to set hearts.

On top of that, I think 3S can be bid with a hand that is still interested in 3N opposite 2254 with no spade stopper. So, over 3S responder is expected to bid 3N with 2254, and cuebid with 3 hearts (or bid 4H with a poor hand).

Over 3H, I think 4N is quantitative (else 3S then keycard...if partner bids 3N over 3S then you might have to cuebid then bid 4N, lol. Obviously playing 4S as keycard over 3H is better, even if you don't play kickback, but whatever). 3S then 4m is a cuebid for hearts, because responder could have just bid 4m if he wanted to drive past 3N and play a minor.

So, since we have everything covered, I believe 5H is an old fashioned "do you have good trumps." Usually one would use blackwood for this, but responder might be void in a minor. Another possibility is that partner fears:

3S-4x-4N-5D and he cant ask for the trump queen (again, kickback!), so he foresaw this and bid 5H.

All that said, if I was playing with a random expert, I would just assume they are making a general quantitative bid since they weren't confident about how to set hearts or didn't want to make a confusing bid.

[nige1]

 mgoetze, on 2011-January-08, 15:34, said:

---

What have East and West shown, and what is West expected to do now?

IMO

• West has 4+♦, 4+♣, and 3♥ (or 2♥ without a ♠ stop).
• East has good ♥ without ♠ control e.g. ♠ xxx ♥ AKQxxxx ♦ - ♣ Axx
• West is meant to pass without a ♠ control e.g. ♠ xx ♥ Jx ♦ AQxxx ♣ KQxx
• With second round control in ♠, West is expected to bid 6♥ or 6N.
• With first round control and a suitable hand, West can make a grand-slam try .

[whereagles]

I actually don't have much thinking to do here, as I have the bid defined as "bid 6 with good trumps". (Regardless of it being the best use for the bid or not, lol.)

Opposite a pickup pard I would try and guess from previous boards what sort of sucidal tendency this is.

[mgoetze]

I was East and held Qxxx AKQJx Ax Ax. I'm pretty sure 3♠ would have been a torture bid for this partner, and even if he did understand 4m as a cuebid, it wouldn't help me find a spade control. So I bid 5♥, hoping it would be understood as suggested by the two Nigels. Unfortunately, partner understood it as a trump quality ask and passed with x Txx KQTxx KQTx.

Justin, is there some more general principle behind the idea that 3♠ should set hearts as trump on this auction?

[whereagles]

what's your problem with spade controls? didn't pard show like a 1354 hand?

[TWO4BRIDGE]

Didn't 3H "set Hts" ?

What is all this about 3S ( over 3H ) "setting Hts" ?

3S would be a cuebid.

You are in a GF auction ( via the 2S! 4th suit ).

If you are unsure that Opener is not short in Sp, then you could cuebid 4C! ( cheapest, and denies a Sp Ctrl )....

[pooltuna]

 mgoetze, on 2011-January-08, 15:34, said:

---

What have East and West shown, and what is West expected to do now?

At this point of the morning, 5♥ looks like a "if you like your trump quality bid 6" call. I would expect the opener to hold a 1345 or 1354 hand and the responder to hold 45xy or 46xy.

[mgoetze]

 TWO4BRIDGE, on 2011-January-09, 06:44, said:

Didn't 3H "set Hts" ?

What is all this about 3S ( over 3H ) "setting Hts" ?

 nigel_k, on 2011-January-08, 18:47, said:

Must West have three card support? What does he bid with xx Qx KJxxx AQxx?

[TWO4BRIDGE]

 nigel_k, on 2011-January-08, 18:47, said:

Must West have three card support? What does he bid with xx Qx KJxxx AQxx?

omg... TWO Nigels..( Do they share the 5-level ? )

Anyway, for the above hand, Opener can't bid 3H with just 2 cards.
3H didn't promise 5 cards and neither did 2S! ( 4th suit ).
Also, without a Sp-stop, Opener can't bid 2NT.
Opener has to default to 3D:

1D - 1H
2C - 2S!
3D - 3S ( now have shown 4s/5h )
3NT or 4H

[Phil]

 TWO4BRIDGE, on 2011-January-09, 06:44, said:

Didn't 3H "set Hts" ?

What is all this about 3S ( over 3H ) "setting Hts" ?

3S would be a cuebid.

You are in a GF auction ( via the 2S! 4th suit ).

If you are unsure that Opener is not short in Sp, then you could cuebid 4C! ( cheapest, and denies a Sp Ctrl )....

3♥ does not 'set hearts'. Opener has no idea of what direction responder is heading when responder bids 2♠. Responder may be making a delayed raise to a minor with a very strong 34(42) for instance. The only strain that is off the table after 3♥ is spades, so the only way that responder can set hearts is through 3♠. Accordingly, responder cannot cuebid 4m here, since strain isn't settled.

Make sense?

(I like a structure where responder can bid a forcing 3m over 2m, but thats neither here nor there)

[Phil]

 JLOGIC, on 2011-January-08, 19:27, said:

Seems very complex actually. Here are my thoughts...

On top of that, I think 3S can be bid with a hand that is still interested in 3N opposite 2254 with no spade stopper. So, over 3S responder is expected to bid 3N with 2254, and cuebid with 3 hearts (or bid 4H with a poor hand).

3♥ gobbles up a lot of space with this pattern. Making an alternate lie with 3♣ might be better than trying to have 3♠ by responder cater to both "I love hearts" and "I don't know where to play". What pattern do you have in mind by responder where we are trying to back into 3N?

[TWO4BRIDGE]

 Phil, on 2011-January-09, 12:21, said:

3♥ does not 'set hearts'. Opener has no idea of what direction responder is heading when responder bids 2♠. Responder may be making a delayed raise to a minor with a very strong 34(42) for instance. The only strain that is off the table after 3♥ is spades, so the only way that responder can set hearts is through 3♠. Accordingly, responder cannot cuebid 4m here, since strain isn't settled.

Make sense?

Sorry, Max Hardy says to bid 3H ONLY w/3 cards... not 2.

Next priority is 2NT w/Sp-stop.

Failing that, Opener rebids his 1st suit w/ 6 cards or a good 5 .

Failing that, rebid his 2nd suit as " least plausible rebid " .

Also, in this "special" auction ( 1D - 1H, 2C - 2S!, ?? ) he allows Opener to bebid 3S with only 3 cards ( instead of the usual 4 cards ) since w/4 cards he would have would have rebid 1S over 1H .... showing a 3 1 5 4 or 3 1 4 5 . ( pp 146-149 in the yellow paperback ).

[Phil]

Two4, please read my post again. 3♥ does not set hearts for reasons already stated. That is what your main assertion was.

We also don't need the run-down of what opener's obligations are over 2♠.

[mtvesuvius]

General quantitative IMO, there are a lot of ways to set hearts, and I think that this is the companion bid to 4N here, the quantitative way of setting hearts as trump.

In any case, I don't think 3♥ can be 2254 (or 2245) here... I prefer 3♣ as the catchall, which is another interesting question... Going to make a thread on it in fact, lol

[TWO4BRIDGE]

 mtvesuvius, on 2011-January-09, 21:09, said:

In any case, I don't think 3♥ can be 2254 (or 2245) here... I prefer 3♣ as the catchall, which is another interesting question... Going to make a thread on it in fact, lol

Exactly...

Once Opener has bid 3♥ and NOT 2NT, 3C, 3D, or 3S, then he has shown a 1 3 5 4 hand ( as in OP's post # 9 ), and Responder can confidently bid their favorite RKCB ( and not 5♥ ) .

3♥ does not exist ( as I play it ) for a 2 2 5 4 , and if Opener held a 2 3 4 4 he would have rebid 1NT ( not 2C ) with a minimum.... which brings to mind another question: For those who would bid 3♥ on a doubleton in a 4SGF auction, would you also "reply" ♥ with only 2 cards in a NMF auction ? ... or do you think I'm comparing "apples and oranges" ?? 4SGF and NMF are specifically asking for 3 card support ... NOT TWO .... as a first priority.

You can only do so much with the limited bidding language, and IMHO, I think bidding 3♥ on a 2 2 5 4 in a 4SGF auction is bastardizing the system( although some will think they are being "brilliantly creative at the table" ).