[nigel_k]

I try to always be polite on these forums but it is just amazing to me that the minds of very good players can be so rigidly encased in the straitjacket of the 4321 point count that they can't see North is worth forcing to game.

[mike777]

I was thinking with the majors our boxes are:

10-13=2h
17+=3h
14-16 are a problem but 2h.

10-17 seems to too big of a range on these hands.

[Lurpoa]

wank, on 2011-January-05, 11:56, said:

there's no alighting in 3♠ once north bids 3♥ - it's GF. south can continue with 3♠ on an 11 count with nothing better to bid.

Do you really think that 3♥ is GF ?
Why would that be (playing BWS2001) ? I see no reason: it is up to responder to take the initiatve. With a good hand he can bid 3NT/4♥ or 4♠ and with a very good hand (could be hidden by his forcing 1NT) he might go into slam investigation.
One round forcing yes: 3♠ is an end-of-the-road bid for me. Unless opener has a very strong 6/4 or 5/5 in the majors, he passes.
But I am not an expert. Any views on that ?
Is it worthwhile to have a poll on this ?

[awm]

Elianna and my Gazzilli variant doesn't have much trouble with this hand. We have:

1♠ - 1N
2♣(1) - 2♥(2)
3♥(3) - 4♥(4)

(1) Either 17+ or spades and hearts
(2) Less than 8, almost always 4+♥ (in principle could be 13(45) though)
(3) Spades and hearts and extras, choice of games
(4) I have four hearts

The knowledge that there are almost surely four hearts opposite (the 2♥ call) should be enough for opener to upgrade.

With that said, there is no really great solution to these hands without Gazzilli (or Riton, or a strong club, or some other method that's not part of SAYC or vanilla 2/1).

I'd probably rebid 3♥ on the north hand; it's a mild overbid but the great controls and intermediates do compensate and the risk of missing a game here is just too great.

So I'd blame the methods 75% and north 25%. South's pass is normal.

[gnasher]

So far as I can see from inside my straitjacket, game is pretty awful opposite xx xxx Axxx QJxx

[the_dude]

Lurpoa, on 2011-January-05, 16:25, said:

Do you really think that 3♥ is GF ?
Why would that be (playing BWS2001) ? I see no reason: it is up to responder to take the initiatve. With a good hand he can bid 3NT/4♥ or 4♠ and with a very good hand (could be hidden by his forcing 1NT) he might go into slam investigation.
One round forcing yes: 3♠ is an end-of-the-road bid for me. Unless opener has a very strong 6/4 or 5/5 in the majors, he passes.
But I am not an expert. Any views on that ?
Is it worthwhile to have a poll on this ?

Lurpoa .. Opener needs to be able to force game once Responder has given his initial response .. showing 19-21 and saying "we are going to game I just don't know where yet". In Standard-American-based 2/1 systems (rightly or wrongly) opener does this with a Jump Shift. It is pretty much 100% game forcing in the 2/1 systems that I know.

You can start carving out exceptions if you wish, but know that they are not standard, and you need to be able to handle hands without obvious fits.

On this auction, responder with Qx KQx KJxxx xxx might very will wish to bid 3♠ and hear from partner again .. not wishing to bid 3NT unilaterally opposite a hand that has shown 9 cards in the majors. But he sure can't do that if partner can pass! Hence the value of the game force.

Obviously it's not perfect, and strong club systems handle these hands way way better...

[gwnn]

Lurpoa, on 2011-January-05, 16:25, said:

Do you really think that 3♥ is GF ?
Why would that be (playing BWS2001) ? I see no reason: it is up to responder to take the initiatve. With a good hand he can bid 3NT/4♥ or 4♠ and with a very good hand (could be hidden by his forcing 1NT) he might go into slam investigation.
One round forcing yes: 3♠ is an end-of-the-road bid for me. Unless opener has a very strong 6/4 or 5/5 in the majors, he passes.
But I am not an expert. Any views on that ?
Is it worthwhile to have a poll on this ?

no it's not worthwile, everyone* here plays 3♥ as GF (except people who have another way of showing a strong hand, like an artificial forcing 2♣ rebid)

*at least 99%

[gwnn]

From the bridge world standard:

Quote

After a one-level new-suit response and opener’s (game-forcing) jump-shift, responder bids naturally.

oh I see this only covers

1x-p-1y where y is a suit not NT.

anyway I don't see why it would be logical to play

1S-p-1N
3H

as non GF and

1H-p-1S
3D

as GF

[gnasher]

In Acol it used to be normal to play 1♠-1NT;3♥ as only a one-round force, probably because of this hand-type. It's gone out of fashion now though.