[straube]

So the advice in my last thread got me thinking...

1C P 1D (2D) ? where 1C is strong and 1D is GF and ambiguous (a la Moscito)

We've been playing double as penalty, but I suppose it should be takeout again? The logic seems the same to me.

[awm]

Sam and I play that the meaning of double doesn't really depend on whether pass would be forcing. Almost all our low-level doubles are takeout, although there are a few exceptions here and there (like when we've already found a fit, or when partner's already made a takeout double in some sequences). For example we play takeout doubles after 1M-X-XX, after strong club-positive-opps bid, after weak NT-Dbl-runout, etc. It seems to work quite well.

[dake50]

You've nailed it!
There must be a difference.
Which hands would X when P forces?
I like this X to show such distribution
that I won't allow penalties below 3S(eg.)
Thus pass strongly asks partner's input.
A partition based on unilateral holding/cooperative hand.

[nigel_k]

I've never heard anything to persuade me that double should be penalty just because we are in a force, whether after a strong 2♣ opening or whatever. Double is the cheapest or second cheapest call and should be used to cover a fairly wide range of hands and it's wasteful to assign it meaning which will usually end the auction because many sequences then go unused.

[straube]

We play after a strong club, nebulous GF 1D response, and natural 1-level interference...

1C P 1D (1H)


P-four+ hearts w/out penalty interest
dbl-penalty
other-reverse relays patterns without four hearts

Over opener's pass or dbl, responder may relay his own patterns, omitting those with four hearts.

In theory (the auction is not further contested), this should work out well because we can expose psyches or catch them occasionally and we have ample room to relay.

Since the auction may be further contested, I expect some would advise us to devote dbl to a takeout bid...maybe give up on relays entirely at this point.

What's best?

[FrancesHinden]

I don't think it's a simple as saying double should be 'takeout' or 'penalty' in a game forcing auction because it depends on the auction.
After a 1-level opening and a game forcing raise you are in a completely different position than after a very ambiguous start to the auction such as this one.

FWIW my agreements after a 2C opening and 2D response (which, as we play 2C game forcing, is similar in some ways) are that:
- double by opener is balanced
- all suit bids by opener are natural, including the 'cue bid' (how often you do this depends on the level, because sometimes you'll prefer to defend)
- pass by opener is either a hand that really wants to defend or a 2/3 suiter.

Responder doubles on pretty much any hand happy to defend (opener cues with a pure 3-suiter or starts bidding suits)

You can discuss what NT bids should mean. I play them as natural but not so stuffed in their suit that I'm desperate to defend, alternatively (depending on level) you might prefer to use them to show 2-suiters, so a pass becomes either a 3-suiter or strict penalties.

[bluecalm]

I second everything awm said. I started playing this way some time ago and I think it's much better than playing dbl for penalty.
The difference is that if you play penalty dbls, your bids say:
pass = nothing to say (but forcing)
dbl = penalty!

While if you play t/o doubles it changes to:
dbl = t/o
pass = nothing to say (or trap!)

Which gives you better/faster way to describe you hand because partner instantly knows if you have good t/o hand in case they compete.
In some situations "t/o" should really mean something very specific. For example:

1♠ - pass - 2♦ - 3♥
dbl

I like playing those dbl's as showing shortness (which I believe is from Meckwell but I don't know their exact agreement on this one)

As to doubles at higher levels it again useful to play dbl as t/o even if pass is forcing.
This time the difference is as follows:
Playing classically:
-dbl = let's defend! (which means don't compete)
-pass = forcing, I have something encouraging to compete OR slam try

Playing with inversion:
-dbl = t/o, let's compete!
-pass = no desire to go higher OR some strong/shapely hand (which is often slam try if we agreed suit or 2suiter if we haven't)

This again gives more space as you can describe your hand with pass and then some bid after pd's double while with classical agreements partner is forced to bid something (not dbl because this is for penalty) after your pass and you lose a lot of space.