[Phil]

So the fine local folk decided to elect me to the unit board (eyes rolling). The Unit (sort of) owns all of the clubs in the area, and also holds the sanction, so it has more responsibility than other unit boards.

I'm kind of looking forward to this stint. One of the first items of business is whether or not we need an AC for club games. My tentative feeling is yes, although I would like to hear others opinions. I do know that many clubs have a strict "all of the director's rulings are final" policy. However, not all of our directors are top-notch, and maybe if having an AC is a poor idea, then we at least should get our directors better trained. For instance, Mike Flader is giving a seminar in a few weeks and it would be a good idea for a lot of us to attend.

I also am in favor of a head director for tricky rulings via phone, and could also screen appeals.

What does your club do, and what are your feelings?

[mgoetze]

I've never heard of appeals at any club games in Germany.

[RMB1]

I think it is sensible to appoint a standing appeals chair[man]. His/her job would be to arrange for appeals to be heard: by acting as a referee, by forming a committee, contacting a national referee, or delegating the task in some other way. The "job description" should also include how to deputise this role when the standing chairman is an involved player/TD.

[bluejak]

In general, most middling English clubs tend to average about two appeals every three or four years. I think it a good idea to allow for them without worrying about whether they are going to happen much. If a club, like the German ones, have no appeals, you have lost nothing because you have a system in place for dealing with them.

Certainly someone available by phone is a good idea. I tend to get asked for assistance by phone about 50 to 100 times a year [and several more times by other methods, primarily email]. Most people find this very helpful.

Personally I am always happy to help people from other jurisdictions. While I have given advice many times to people in the ACBL, never so far by phone!

[mycroft]

I have the luxury of having several very good professional TDs that I can contact, if they're not at a tournament this Wednesday (say). This is because of the area I'm in and, of course, the fact that I occasionally work with them. But I'm sure the same thing would apply to anyone else who asked.

I've never seen a need for an appeal at my club games (ones I've played in or directed), but I have frequently called one of those TDs or a good player for consultation on a judgement ruling. I have found that when I explain that I have done so, it satisfies the players as to the sanity of my ruling.

But if there's a provision for appeals, even if "we have X, Y and Z who are willing to be called and presented with 'an appeal'; if that happens, we contact one if possible, and their sole judgement is final", then it's something you don't have to fake up when it happens. If it doesn't, well, that's no problem, either.

[JoAnneM]

We do not have an appeals committee in our club, but I have been known to change a ruling after consulting with our resident TD if he is there, or even after taking a closer look at the book. I would hate to damage a pair with a bad ruling, but I am a playing director, so that sometimes becomes a problem. No one has ever asked that a committee be formed.

[bluejak]

One hopes to avoid bad rulings, of course, but the primary purpose of an AC is not for bad rulings: it is for matters of judgement. If I think the TD has misjudged I shall appeal. I do so with no suggestion whatever that the TD has done anything wrong.

[blackshoe]

An appeal is also a necessary step in cases where the ruling may be incorrect in law, even thought the AC can't change the ruling. OTOH, if, as in the ACBL, the likelihood that the RA will hear the appeal is practically nil, I suppose it's a waste of time to ask for one at the club level.

[JoAnneM]

I guess there is a big difference between the small non-profit clubs and the commercial clubs. A small club is lucky to get volunteer directors, hopefully trained ones, and then to subject them, and the club management to the added threat, at the table, of appeals is a lot, IMHO. I think it is much better to make sure there is a support system in place for those directors, and to make sure they use it. We use the book when we have a call, we review the Laws frequently, we go over calls we had after the game, we write to ACBL if we have questions. Even our resident TD who is off at a Regional right now doesn't always have the answers, and that is why we are always ready to second think a ruling made at the table. But a committee? No.

For large clubs or commerical clubs my opinion would lean toward committees.

[blackshoe]

Players have a legal right to appeal a TD's ruling. How is that a threat, much less an added one? Note: it may (or may not) be desirable to form a committee to hear an appeal. It is not a legal necessity. See Law 93A.

[Phil]

The formation of an AC was requested by a player.

I can only assume he's had some bad rulings in the past, but I do not know the nature.

[barmar]

While rulings at clubs might occasionally need to be appealed, it's not clear that they need a standing AC for this. Our club (tiny -- 8 tables is good attendance these days) gets maybe one appeal a year, and when it happens we throw together a committee on the spot from players who are on hand. Is the concern that these players might not be sufficiently knowledgeable in the Laws to provide adequate judgement?

[bluejak]

If a TD looks on an AC as a threat then the TD needs an attitude adjustment. Clearly such TDs have no idea what appeals are for. Unless a TD is so arrogant as to believe his judgement is better than anyone else in the club why would he have a problem with someone else looking at his judgement of a hand?

[pran]

May I suggest that Law 93A is consulted before continuing this discussion?

LAW 93 - PROCEDURES OF APPEAL

A. No Appeals Committee

The Director in charge shall hear and rule upon all appeals if there is no Appeals Committee (or alternative arrangement under Law 80B2(k)), or if such cannot operate without disturbing the orderly progress of the tournament.

[blackshoe]

Seems to me I just did that.

[pran]

blackshoe, on 2010-December-30, 20:51, said:

Seems to me I just did that.

Indeed
and a happy New Year to you!
regards

[blackshoe]

Thank you, Sven, and same to you, and to everyone!

[FrancesHinden]

Although appeals from clubs are usually very rare, I agree it's a good idea to have a standing arrangement for how they are heard, which ideally is not by the TD who gave the original ruling. It can be difficult to form an AC at a club on the evening, both because tend to want to go home quickly and also because it can be very hard to get a sufficiently good/knowledgeable committee. IMO, this is particularly the case because the people who tend to appeal rulings at a club are often the most awkward/bad-tempered/self-important/egotistic ones. Obviously this doesn't apply to you, the reader, but it's a good general rule.... the genuinely good players generally don't care (or if they want to help the TD improve may do so privately rather than via the appeals process).

I think it's more important to have a genuinely good TD who can hear appeals than necessarily an AC of good players. Most club rulings that cause really bad feeling do so because either the ruling was technically wrong, or it was right but the TD didn't explain it properly. Most players on a normal club evening don't appeal judgement rulings because they think the matchpoints are vital, they do so because they are upset and/or offended at what they see as a wrong ruling, or one that seems to "accuse them of cheating" - it's this type of MI/UI/claim ruling that needs to be explained calmly and clearly, that a playing TD under presssure does not always have the time or inclination to do.

Rather than have each club set up procedures for holding appeals, some clubs I know of have appointed one or more people as referees, who will hear appeals after the event. Typically they would be one of the best players and also someone with a good idea of the rules - or someone who knows someone... for example, my father is the standing referee for his local club. He is a qualified TD, and one of their best players, and in any case it's well known he'll consult some of this relatives if there is a tricky judgement ruling.

[G_R__E_G]

In an NHL hockey game there are two on-ice referees, two linesman, two goal judges, video reviews done at the league office in Toronto and a Director of Officiating that reviews plays for possible disciplinary action against players. When me and my friends get together to play a pick-up game we make our own calls. There are of course many levels in between.

I think the bridge club regular games are much closes to the latter than the former and that having any sort of formal appeal process is a little over the top. At my club I'm the head director and if a player has a concern about a ruling they all know that they can come to see me. I've been approached all of three times over the last four years that I've been doing this and on all three occasions the director was clearly correct. I'm not saying that our directors haven't made any mistakes but clearly our players are happy enough with them. I think when you set up all sorts of formal processes for these types of things you're really just asking people to complain more often.

[NickRW]

FrancesHinden, on 2011-January-03, 11:31, said:

Most players on a normal club evening don't appeal judgement rulings because they think the matchpoints are vital, they do so because they are upset and/or offended at what they see as a wrong ruling, or one that seems to "accuse them of cheating" - it's this type of MI/UI/claim ruling that needs to be explained calmly and clearly, that a playing TD under presssure does not always have the time or inclination to do.

I agree with this.

Speaking as someone who TDs at about 35-40% of the sessions I play in, the vast majority of situations do not need an appeal and about half of the ones where there might be don't materialise into one at the end of the evening. The one time where it was obvious that there would be an appeal and I didn't have the time to do justice to it myself there were a couple of players in the room who have formal AC experience. I simply asked them pretty much straight away if they'd stay behind for 10 minutes to consider the case - which they were only too happy to.

I am reasonably fortunate in that there is almost always someone else in the room who has some TD or AC experience that I can call on if it were to be needed - which is rare - but helpful in the one case it has happened - not because they are necessarily better - just that it calms the situation to have someone independent attend to it - which is mainly what is really required in a club environment.

Nick