[mgoetze]

---

Parter showed 22-24, what's your plan?

If you bid 3♣:

Spoiler

Partner will bid 3♦, showing no 4-card major

(Matchpoints but please specify what you would do differently at IMPs)

[han]

I would bid Stayman (or puppet stayman) to see if partner has 4 hearts. If so, I'd bid 3S (setting hearts as trump and showing slam interest), and then bid 4NT (RKC). If partner shows 3 keycards then I bid 5NT to show that we have all keycards and invite a grand slam. If partner can't bid 7 over that then I'll bid 6NT.

If partner does not have 4 hearts or does not have 3 keycards then I'll bid 6NT.

[whereagles]

Just a plain 6NT.

We got 34-36 but the hand is very flattish, so 6 will probably be the limit.

[dcohio]

6NT.

Even with a 4-4 heart fit, at MP I'm in 6NT with 34-36 combined and 4333 shape. I'm skipping stayman here, giving opponents as little information as possible.

[Lurpoa]

mgoetze, on 2010-December-23, 08:13, said:

---

Parter showed 22-24, what's your plan?

If you bid 3♣:

Spoiler

Partner will bid 3♦, showing no 4-card major

(Matchpoints but please specify what you would do differently at IMPs)

6NT

what else George?

[mgoetze]

I was just making sure I wouldn't be the only one to miss this 96% grand.

---

[Phil]

First, start playing Kokish or figure out a way to trim down these three point ranges. 22-24 is unmanageable.

I would like some method like 4♠ to discover partner's suits and to figure out if partner has a doubleton.

Barring that I will bid 6N over 3♦. If partner has hearts, then I'll try 3♠ and hope to learn something useful.

[mgoetze]

Phil, on 2010-December-23, 10:50, said:

First, start playing Kokish or figure out a way to trim down these three point ranges. 22-24 is unmanageable.

Sure, but that wasn't really the problem here, was it? Feel free to describe your methods and how they would have led to 7 on this hand.

[mtvesuvius]

mgoetze, on 2010-December-23, 11:33, said:

Sure, but that wasn't really the problem here, was it? Feel free to describe your methods and how they would have led to 7 on this hand.

Don't tempt us... Me & Owen would have found it by relaying [We'd be able to find the HJ, and possibly the DJ, too early for me to figure that out]

In a 2/1 type system, there really isn't much way to find it, a BAL 12 facing 22-23 or 22-24 isn't ever going to make a grand try... I'd have bid 6N over 2N.

[mgoetze]

mtvesuvius, on 2010-December-23, 11:51, said:

Don't tempt us... Me & Owen would have found it by relaying [We'd be able to find the HJ, and possibly the DJ, too early for me to figure that out]

Yes obviously you can get there over a strong 1♣ opening, but if anyone has methods that would get there over 2NT I'd be much more interested in that.

[Cyberyeti]

mgoetze, on 2010-December-23, 12:09, said:

Yes obviously you can get there over a strong 1♣ opening, but if anyone has methods that would get there over 2NT I'd be much more interested in that.

Given the choice I have, I'd open it as a 23-24 rather than 20-22, but still not convinced I'd get there.

[Phil]

mgoetze, on 2010-December-23, 11:33, said:

Sure, but that wasn't really the problem here, was it? Feel free to describe your methods and how they would have led to 7 on this hand.

I would not expect a lot of pairs to get to 7 here, and I never represented I could get to 7. As a matter of fact I specifically said I wouldn't. But I like to snipe at bad methods, and sorry if you got caught in the crosshairs

2N (and 2N rebids) are not called slam killers for nothing. Even if I made an aggressive upgrade with the nice 22, someone would have to take a position to bid 7.

@mtvesuvius: please show me your auction. If the 4333 relays, its possible, but if the strong hand starts relaying how on earth are you going to uncover the ♥J?

[mtvesuvius]

Phil, on 2010-December-23, 13:39, said:

@mtvesuvius: please show me your auction. If the 4333 relays, its possible, but if the strong hand starts relaying how on earth are you going to uncover the ♥J?

1♣ - 1♦ [15+ Any; Any GF]
1♥ - 1N [GF relay - 12+ AKQ points or any hand that wants to take charge; BAL or any 4441]
2♣ - 2♦ [Relay; 4♥, may have 4♠ or 44(41)]
2♥ - 3♦ [Relay; 3433]
3♥ - 3♠ [Relay; Minimum (5-7 AKQ points)]
4♣ - 4♠ [Relay; 7 AKQ points, 0/2 top ♥ honours]
4N - 5♣ [Relay; 0/2 top ♣ honours]
5♦ - 5♥ [Relay; 0/2 top ♦ honours (N now knows Axx AQxx xxx xxx)]
5♠ - 6♦ [Relay; 1/3 top ♠ honours, ♥J, no ♣J, last relay is at 5N, so relays end]
7N - P [1♠, 4♥, 5♦, 3♣, admittedly not room to know about ♦J, but still a very reasonable grand...; OK]

Only 19 bids

[MickyB]

Phil, on 2010-December-23, 10:50, said:

First, start playing Kokish or figure out a way to trim down these three point ranges. 22-24 is unmanageable.

Eh? What method do you suggest?

Assuming you aren't playing a multi or something, I can only assume you are advocating

20-21 2NT opening
22-23 through Kokish
24+ opens 2C and rebids 2NT

This hardly seems ideal when you pick up 24+, although that will be infrequently.

The truly bad methods on display in this thread are Cyberyeti's, whose three-point 2NT bid is much more frequent than OP's. For some reason, this is completely standard in the UK.

[fromageGB]

MickyB, on 2010-December-23, 14:47, said:

20-21 2NT opening
22-23 through Kokish
24+ opens 2C and rebids 2NT

I like to play it the other way, "the more bids the stronger".
20-21 2NT
22-23 2♣ 2♦ 2NT
24-25 2♣ 2♦ 2♥ 2♠ 2NT
That's easier to remember !

I agree with you about the appalling British 2NT. I think it's because people here seem welded to the idea that it's best to open at the 2 level if you have 8 tricks, and of course it has to be stronger to play Kokish.

And the reason people play 8 trick 2 bids is that they have no way of opening 1 and making a GF continuation. Acol has a lot to answer for. It really surprises me the EBU continues to encourage teaching it.

[mgoetze]

Indeed 20-21/22-24 makes a lot more sense than 20-22/23-24.

Anyway there is a tradeoff here in general. Sure, playing 20-21/22-23/24-25 (the last via 2♣-2♦-2♥-2♠-2NT) is better if you actually have one of these ranges.
If you were to play, say, 20-22/23-25/26-28 instead... well you would certainly appreciate it if you actually held a 27 HCP balanced hand. And of course Kokish involves
some tradeoffs when you actually hold the heart hand, etc.

[Cyberyeti]

MickyB, on 2010-December-23, 14:47, said:

The truly bad methods on display in this thread are Cyberyeti's, whose three-point 2NT bid is much more frequent than OP's. For some reason, this is completely standard in the UK.

I actually prefer to play something more like good 19-21 so a 2.5 point range, 22-23, 24-25 etc but as Mr B says, what I posted is completely standard in the UK.

[Phil]

Its a function of frequency for me.

2N = 20-21
2♣...2N = 22-23
2♣...2♥...2N = 24-25
2♣...2♥...3N = 25-26
2♣...2♥...4N = 27-28

I've never played the Kokish rebid -> 2N as 24+. I don't see how its playable TBH.

[matmat]

Phil, on 2010-December-24, 12:45, said:

Its a function of frequency for me.

2N = 20-21
2♣...2N = 22-23
2♣...2♥...2N = 24-25
2♣...2♥...3N = 25-26
2♣...2♥...4N = 27-28

I've never played the Kokish rebid -> 2N as 24+. I don't see how its playable TBH.

what's 2♣...3N?

[matmat]

2N-6N seems like the value auction, but P often has weird shapes for their 2♣-2N auctions (stiff aces some places, and the like). I'd probably at least stayman to check for a ♥ fit.