[shevek]

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With 1♣ 16+ and East a passed hand, we bid:

1♣ - 1♠ (hearts, 8-10)
1N - 2♦ (clubs, 5+ hearts)
2♥ - 3♣ (2-5-2-4)

1N & 2♥ were shape asks.
After a non-productive tank I bid 4♥. Didn't fancy 3NT from my side.
As it happens, a spade lead shoots 3NT/W while 4♥ is cold.
Over 3♣, I have 3♦ to ask for SPs, 3♥ for kontrols. 3♠ undefined ....

I tend to give partner a typical minimum with points in the long suits.
No fun of course when the hand is Kx, xxxxx, Ax, Qxxx.
What are the principles here, other that the Hamman rule?
It retrospect, 2NT natural over 2♦ is better but maybe describer will bid 3NT with any 2-5-2-4. Is that right??

[Crunch3nt]

Hi Shevek,

Your hand is an excellent example of the drawback to relay. You do find out the shape, but not the suit quality, whereas with natural bidding, you are able to choose to highlight issues if you wish eg with xx AQxxx xx Kxxx, the auction goes P-1NT; 2D-2H; 3C but with Kx xxxxx Ax Qxxx the auction goes P-1NT; 3NT and with the original hand probably P-1NT; 2D-2H, 3NT.

To solve this issue, your suggestion of 2NT, Nat GF is a good one if you have it available (my system doesn't). Over it responder should not bid 3NT with all 2=5=2=4 shapes. If 2NT promises two hearts (it should), then 3H should show doubt about NT and a good suit. 3C should be doubt as well, not 5/5 because opener could have asked, and you would have opened rather than passing anyway.

A good alternative method is to play some of the available relay-breaks by captain as asking about the quality of the doubleton(s). I haven't played this method, so don't know the exact scheme, but this seems a pretty good fix.

[DinDIP]

 Crunch3nt, on 2010-December-23, 13:12, said:

To solve this issue, your suggestion of 2NT, Nat GF is a good one if you have it available (my system doesn't). Over it responder should not bid 3NT with all 2=5=2=4 shapes. If 2NT promises two hearts (it should), then 3H should show doubt about NT and a good suit. 3C should be doubt as well, not 5/5 because opener could have asked, and you would have opened rather than passing anyway.

If 2N promises two hearts then it makes sense for 3H to show a good 5-card suit as responder can just bid 4H with a 6-card suit. (And if responder is an UPH -- and so might still have slam interest -- he can bid 3H then 4H or show a control/SPL with a strong 64.) It probably is reasonable to require a doubleton heart for 2N: the auction is GF so O must be interested in a choice of games. Of course that means some other hands that want to offer a choice of games have to relay (unless playing the methods discussed below), say a hand like KJxxx x Axx AKQx where you might want to play 4S if partner has Ax or Qx.

 Crunch3nt, on 2010-December-23, 13:12, said:

A good alternative method is to play some of the available relay-breaks by captain as asking about the quality of the doubleton(s). I haven't played this method, so don't know the exact scheme, but this seems a pretty good fix.

There are a number of possibilities. My preferred method is to play
3D asks for stopper(s) in doubletons (denial method, following usual rules for ordering suits)
3H asks for AKQP
3S shows a SPL in the major teller has shown (the shorter suit if teller has shown H+S or C+D), initially choice of games but could be a slam try, so teller should bid above 4C with extras (can be showing AKQP, RKC responses or NAT -- i.e. control-showing -- as you wish).
4C asks for controls (A=2, K=1)

Of course, you have to decide whether Qx qualifies as a stopper: in Ultimate Club only Kx and Ax counted.

But that adds some complexity -- too much for some. In which case, given Shevek's methods, it seems reasonable to define 3S as asking for a choice of games. It could be asking about the higher (or lower) of the doubletons or the long suit, or just a general direction shot. The exact choice should depend on what 2N (instead of 2S over 2H) means -- no point duplicating options. In which case, maybe it makes sense to reserve 3S for hands like KJxxx x Axx AKQx where O is looking for a choice between teller's doubleton M and 3N.

David

[Trinidad]

 Crunch3nt, on 2010-December-23, 13:12, said:

Hi Shevek,

Your hand is an excellent example of the drawback to relay. You do find out the shape, but not the suit quality, whereas with natural bidding, you are able to choose to highlight issues if you wish eg with xx AQxxx xx Kxxx, the auction goes P-1NT; 2D-2H; 3C but with Kx xxxxx Ax Qxxx the auction goes P-1NT; 3NT and with the original hand probably P-1NT; 2D-2H, 3NT.

I think this is very harsh on the relay methods. I play a "natural" strong club method. We would bid:
1♣-1♠ (strong - hearts)
2♠-2NT (Balanced, exactly 2 hearts - OK, let's play NT)
3NT

(pretty lucky to rightside the contract after starting with three artificial bids)

or

1♣-1♠ (strong - hearts)
2♦-3♣ (natural, natural)

Same problem as Shevek, except that the spade lead against 3NT will be made even more obvious to the opponents.

In a natural system, after a 1NT opening the auction would not start P-1NT; 2♦-2♥; 3♣ with xx AQxxx xx Kxxx. That would be considered daisy-picking. Furthermore, it is doubtful whether such a hand would be worth a game force after a 1NT opening.

Finally, in a natural system, I would consider this hand too strong for a 1NT opening. I would open 1NT, hear a 1♥ response and rebid 2NT. Now, we would be in the same position as Shevek: We don't have a clue whether we need to be in 4♥ or 3NT.

Naturalists won't even address the stopper problem. They will use some form of checkback or new minor forcing, find out that opener has only 2 hearts and bid 3NT: What do you mean? Checking for a stopper in spades? We don't have an 8 card major fit. We have the values for game. Therefore, we play 3NT!

Rik

This post has been edited by Trinidad: 2010-December-24, 07:51

[Crunch3nt]

Hi Rik,

I'm not picking on relay methods, I prefer them to natural methods. :-)

I agree that playing 15-17 1NT, the West hand is too strong. (I hadn't noticed that). So you are right, the natural auction would be no better off: 1D-1H; 2NT-3C (CB); 3NT

My comments are about the principles involved though. Relay has its drawbacks, and this posting is an example of the most significant - not being able to differentiate between suit quality. This issue come up a lot. eg Partner opens, you relay and find out you have no 8 card major fit, but opposite your xxx he has a doubleton. Do you choose 3NT or a Major suit Moyse? You are guessing.

I totally disagree that if you did open 1NT, that P-1NT; 2♦-2♥; 3♣ with xx AQxxx xx Kxxx is "daisy-picking". 24 HCP with a 5 card suit is a clear GF, and P-1NT; 2♦-2♥; 3♣ is a perfect description of your hand. When you do play natural, the advantage is that you get to bid quality suits when you can and NT when you can't.

[petterb]

 Crunch3nt, on 2010-December-24, 15:25, said:

I agree that playing 15-17 1NT, the West hand is too strong.

16.95

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