[kgr]

IMP's

---

North dealer.
How do you bid these hands?
In our system we can give 4-card support and a void.
Eg:
1S-3D
3H-3S
3NT-4H
=> shows 4-card support 10-11 and a H-void.
or:
Eg:
1S-3H
3NT-4H
=> shows 4-card support 12-14 and a H-void.
But still it is not possible for North to see that all hearts can be ruffed after a trump lead.

[MrAce]

I have to say one thing, that hcp limits u mentioned (10-11 ♥ void, 12-14 ♥ void) doesn't really mean much. If i were u i wouldn't waste seperate space for both in my system or if i will i would go with number of controls rather than hcp (A=2 K=1)

Qxxxx void KQJT KQJx 14 hcp you can go down in slam

Kxxxxx void Axxx Kxx 10 hcp grandslam is cold


Anyway, 5th or more trump support is vital when gifted with a void, i think every pdship should have a way in their system to show extra trump support with stiff or void, apprx with 2-3 controls, anything more than that should be shown differently. I mean 5+ cards supp + void+ 4 controls makes a hand giant imo.

[kgr]

MrAce, on 2010-December-15, 06:02, said:

I have to say one thing, that hcp limits u mentioned (10-11 ♥ void, 12-14 ♥ void) doesn't really mean much. If i were u i wouldn't waste seperate space for both in my system or if i will i would go with number of controls rather than hcp (A=2 K=1)

Could be that controls are most of the time more useful (although points can be important to locate possibility of Q's).

MrAce, on 2010-December-15, 06:02, said:

Anyway, 5th or more trump support is vital when gifted with a void, i think every pdship should have a way in their system to show extra trump support with stiff or void, apprx with 2-3 controls, anything more than that should be shown differently. I mean 5+ cards supp + void+ 4 controls makes a hand giant imo.

Do you have that in you pdship?

[gwnn]

you will never be able to show you have 6 trumps, no matter how many hcp you show. I think S has to punt at some point, but it is unclear when.

[Fluffy]

if partner has a void he has a 5 card suit, wichever suit it is, it can provide the 12th trick, at least if opponents fail the lead.

[MrAce]

Double post

[MrAce]

kgr, on 2010-December-15, 10:33, said:

Could be that controls are most of the time more useful (although points can be important to locate possibility of Q's).

True but as you said, when 5+ trump support and a void is involved, controls should be priority imo.

Do you have that in you pdship?

Yes we do

1♥-2♠ (promises 5+ ♥ and has too many other picture hand types in it too )
Relay asks

1♠-3♥ (promises 5+♠ with stiff or void and can show both when relayed)
Relay asks

It will not come very often, i admit. But i would rather have it than using HCP limits like 10-11 and 12-14 with both 4 cards trump supp. 5-5 5-6 trumps, shortness (especially void) and controls can produce too many tricks as we all know.

[ewleongusa]

kgr, on 2010-December-15, 03:17, said:

IMP's

---

North dealer.
How do you bid these hands?
In our system we can give 4-card support and a void.
Eg:
1S-3D
3H-3S
3NT-4H
=> shows 4-card support 10-11 and a H-void.
or:
Eg:
1S-3H
3NT-4H
=> shows 4-card support 12-14 and a H-void.
But still it is not possible for North to see that all hearts can be ruffed after a trump lead.

I would think after this start opener has a clear 5C cuebid. Responder will bid 5H to say I am interested in 6S but I am worried about diamonds. Opener can now bid 6S.

Eric Leong

[mtvesuvius]

I think that having a way to show 5 and 6 card fits with partner's 1M opener is a giant waste of time, especially a 2♠ or 3♥ call. Obviously on this hand it will help, but at some point S can just punt IMO, or even bid it "scientifically":

1♠-2N [Normal Opening; GF ♠ Raise]
3♦-4♥ [Shortness; ERKC] (Should 4♥ be ERKC here? I think so)
5♦-6♠ [2 Keycards without the ♠Q; OK, let's play here]

I'd rather have to guess or punt on hands like this, than give up the chance to show an INV hand with hearts (or some form of INV raise with 2♠ or using it as a GF raise, etc etc...)

Bidding 5♣ after one of the other starts is a bit of resulting IMO. Opposite a 10-11 hand with a heart void, the KJxx really does not look like a good holding. On a trump lead, the contract looks doomed. Opposite a 12-14 hand it's reasonable, but why would S show this as 12-14?

[TWO4BRIDGE]

kgr, on 2010-December-15, 03:17, said:

IMP's

---

North dealer.
How do you bid these hands?

Just use your plain vanilla Jac2NT ( ugly as it is ) to see if partner has shortness too.

Shortness-opposite-other shortness gets lots of tricks with relatively few hcp... especially
when you know you have 6 trumps opposite at least 5.

• If partner has NO shortness and a minimum, he will bid 4S ... and you pass.

• If partner has NO shortness and "extras", lets say he bids 3S! then start cuebidding: 4C!

• If partner HAS shortness in Diam ( 3D! ) , you are off to the races: start with 3H! cuebid.

1S........................ Jac2NT!
3D! ( shortness)....... 3H! ( Ht cue )
4C! ( Cl cue )............ 4H! ( ♥ void, denies ♦ Ctrl )
4NT ........................ 5D! ( 1/4 )
5H! ( trump Q-ask ) .. 5NT! ( yes )
6S

[olien]

Adam, don't you still use distribution points? You keep telling them to me when you overbid by a mile.

You have 2 length points for the spades, and like 5 points for the void. Therefore, it is 15 support points

So, if you're the little old lady at the bridge club, should bid 1♠ - 4NT and hesitate over partner's re-bid because you don't know if the void is any good, and sign off and partner will know to go on. Easy hand to bid

[kgr]

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2010-December-16, 12:45, said:

• If partner HAS shortness in Diam ( 3D! ) , you are off to the races: start with 3H! cuebid.
1S........................ Jac2NT!
3D! ( shortness)....... 3H! ( Ht cue )
4C! ( Cl cue )............ 4H! ( ♥ void, denies ♦ Ctrl )
4NT ........................ 5D! ( 1/4 )
5H! ( trump Q-ask ) .. 5NT! ( yes )
6S

3♥ shows 1st/2nd control? => Why is 4♥ showing a ♥ void and not 1st control and can also be ♥A?

[TWO4BRIDGE]

kgr, on 2010-December-17, 03:39, said:

3♥ shows 1st/2nd control? => Why is 4♥ showing a ♥ void and not 1st control and can also be ♥A?

You are right, 3H! showed 1st or 2nd Rnd Ctrl.

Then 4H! next showed 1st AND 2nd Rnd Ctrls..... and NOT necessarilty a void,

but could be either

a) A K... or
b ) stiff A or
c) void.

Clarification would come after partner's 4NT RKC-ask:

4NT - 6H = odd( 1 or 3 keys; must be 1 and not ♦A) + ♥void
6S ( no more room for any more asks )