[mich-b]

Amazingly those 2 hands occured in a single tournament :

---

---

In Both hands partner opens a 15-17 1NT (Teams)
(in hand 1 , pd opened after 3 passes , and we are NV.
in hand 2, pd was dealer and we are VUL against NVUL).

Would you Pass , invite, bid game? (on both hands or either one)

[inderdeed]

I'd force to game on the first and pass on the second.

[gwnn]

I see a conspiracy.

I'd pass on the second one too but I would just invite on the first
(assuming standard responses 2♣ and raise 2♠ to game and invite opposite 2♦/2♥ - I hope he shows his spades over 2♥/2N)

[Fluffy]

Agree with Csaba

[awm]

I would bid stayman on the first hand. If partner bids 2♠ then I will bid game, if partner bids 2♥ I will try passing, if partner bids 2♦ I will invite.

On the second hand I would pass.

My evaluation is that 3NT might make opposite a maximum, but will be quite iffy; this hand is not "really" worth an invitation. However, the first hand has the added upside of finding a 4-4 spade fit game (game rates to be quite good opposite 4-5♠ from partner) and of improving the partial into 2♥. Combining these extra chances compensates for the possibility of getting too high after 1N-2♣-2♦-2N (either failing in 2N, or bidding to 3N and going down).

[Flameous]

On first one I stayman (P bid 2S with both majors), invite over 2♠ (NV and P in third...). Over 2♦ I bid 2♠ NF minor suit stayman and if p bids 3♣ I'll go to game. I'm not so sure after 2♥, probably pass.

[pooltuna]

mich-b, on 2010-December-14, 04:08, said:

Amazingly those 2 hands occured in a single tournament :

---

---

In Both hands partner opens a 15-17 1NT (Teams)
(in hand 1 , pd opened after 3 passes , and we are NV.
in hand 2, pd was dealer and we are VUL against NVUL).

Would you Pass , invite, bid game? (on both hands or either one)

for the colors and scoring I would just pass. In the first hand if I was V I would venture a stayman call

[mgoetze]

awm, on 2010-December-14, 05:17, said:

I would bid stayman on the first hand. If partner bids 2♠ then I will bid game, if partner bids 2♥ I will try passing, if partner bids 2♦ I will invite.

I suppose you play German Standard, where opener's Stayman response with 4-4 majors is 2NT.

[mtvesuvius]

I'd bid stayman on the first:
->Over 2♦ I'd invite
->Over 2♥ I'd pass
->Over 2♠ I'd bid 4♠

On the second I'd invite however possible.

[nigel_k]

I'd pass both but obviously on the first one pass will often be wrong if partner has spades. This needs a simulation.

[mikeh]

On the first one, I adopt the volcanic approach: 2♣, passing 2♥, raising 2♠ to game and bidding 2N over 2♦.

Passing 2♥ will be sub-optimal if he is 4=4 majors, since in my partnerships, we respond 2♥ with 4=4, but it still rates, on average, to do better than 1N on such layouts...they will have at least 9 diamonds to play against 1N.

On the 2nd hand, I just pass.

[dellache]

Exactly the same as mikeh.

[mich-b]

For those who are interested in what actually happened:

1st hand opener had

---

.
My partner staymaned and raised 2♠ to 4♠. But ♠s were 4-1 , and no miracle in ♣s so we were down (same result in other table).

2nd hand opener had

---

.
My partner passed, and we lost a game swing when other table just bid 3NT , and found ♥KQ onside.

[Fluffy]

inviting rules 8)

[MrAce]

mich-b, on 2010-December-15, 04:03, said:

For those who are interested in what actually happened:

1st hand opener had

---

.
My partner staymaned and raised 2♠ to 4♠. But ♠s were 4-1 , and no miracle in ♣s so we were down (same result in other table).

2nd hand opener had

---

.
My partner passed, and we lost a game swing when other table just bid 3NT , and found ♥KQ onside.

Here is what i wrote in another topic about how i bid games

MrAce, on 2010-December-14, 14:06, said:

....... I am too agressive for bidding games, and extremely conservative with slam bidding. I don't even believe in making game trial bids, it is not even scientific to me. I believe when we bid a borderline game, a good outcome depends on 3 more factors than what me and my pd has and this is at the 3rd rank of priority among all 4....

I would have bid game with both of them. I seriously do not believe in invitations with that kinda hands due to shyness. A pass to 1 NT with second hand makes more sense to me than invitation if i am gonna choose the low path. All borderline games which are played apprx with 22-25 hcp, has much more chance to make if reached with minimum info for the defender on lead and in genereal for defense. But thats my style, to me game try = You bid it and try to make it. If NV, i wld have passed with 2nd hand.