[Yzerman]

I recently played in a local tournament, and found that my regular partner and I had some high level bidding misunderstandings in competitive auctions. Our team discussed some general theory of competitive bidding on high levels, as well as theory behind fast and slow preempts in competitive auctions.

I will give a few examples below. We were unable to agree on any one certain theory, however we did agree on the following;

"When playing vs GOOD competition, the BEST you can realistically expect to do is put your opponents in a position to make the last guess and hope that they get it wrong"

Your Hand (everyone vulnerable, IMPs):

xxx
x
J10xxxx
Kxx

Auction:

RHO, 1H
you, Pass
LHO, 2C (game force)
Partner, Double (takeout)
RHO, 3C

What do you bid now?

3D, 4D, 5D, 6D, and pass are all options in this auction. Personally, I like 5D here. Looking @ your hand, this is big double fit hand (partner should have 9+ cards in unbids and you have 9 cards in unbids). With a potential club trick, and a partner that has made a takeout double in a 'hot' auction, you have potential defensive trick a double fit. Bidding 5D, is consistent with "the Law" so you should have 'safe' result in 5D against whatever game they make. I think 5D rates to be right, for you have consumed 3 levels of bidding room and LHO has yet to get his heart raise in (which you expect to hear in this auction).

Next Hand (your side favorable, IMPs):

xxxxx
Kx
Axx
J9x

Auction:

RHO, 1D (opps play precision .. if 11-13 balanced, may have < 3 diamonds)
You, Pass
LHO, 2C (NOT game force)
Partner, Double (takeout)
RHO, 3C

What do you bid now?

I bid 4S immediately here. In retrospect, I believe that this is the wrong bid for a variety of reasons. First of all, the opps are not even in forcing auction so 4S might go down when neither side can make a contract. Second of all, if partner is on lead vs 5C, you REALLY dont want him (her) to lead a spade. After considerable thought, since our fit is in the spade suit and I can always outbid partner in spades, I think the proper bid is 3D after which I will convert hearts to spades. This might be the best approach to get partner off of spade lead vs 5C, and yet compete intelligently in a 'hot' auction.

So now, the general question. In highly contested auctions, what is "the best" approach. Does slow bidding (non-preemptive calls) imply a fit with defense or does fast bidding imply fit with defense? I think partnerships, should have some mutual understanding of this type of bidding, if one partner is zigging and the other partner is zagging this bidding can lead to disaster, however if both partners are on the same page, mutual understandings in hotly contested auctions can lead your side to prepare itself quite nicely to compete and put your opponents on the "last guess".

Regards,
MAL

[jtfanclub]

Quote

Your Hand (everyone vulnerable, IMPs):

xxx
x
J10xxxx
Kxx

Auction:

RHO, 1H
you, Pass
LHO, 2C (game force)
Partner, Double (takeout)
RHO, 3C

What do you bid now?

3D, 4D, 5D, 6D, and pass are all options in this auction.  Personally, I like 5D here.  Looking @ your hand, this is big double fit hand (partner should have 9+ cards in unbids and you have 9 cards in unbids).

OK, I give. Your partner doesn't have 5 spades or he'd bid them, right? So there's no double fit. Your partner's 4-3-4-2 or possibly 4-4-3-2, yes? So we have probably 10-7 and they have 9-8. 5D+4H=21...and the total tricks is 17-19.

I think I'll just pass, and hope the unexpected heart split costs them a trick.

Quote

RHO, 1D (opps play precision .. if 11-13 balanced, may have < 3 diamonds)

....

Quote

I think the proper bid is 3D after which I will convert hearts to spades.

I think you're making a bid mistake to have that 3D call be a cue bid. Opener has the 11-13 hcp hand and clubs, so he could have two diamonds. What are you going to say with a diamond suit?

Me, I say 3S. And then I get ready to see what dummy has, becuase I expect that to end the auction. I have too many controls for them to have game.

The best approach, IMHO, is after opener has rebid his hand it's time to stop interfering and time to start bidding where you want to play it.

[inquiry]

Quote

xxx
x
J10xxxx
Kxx

I agree 5♦ is correct. Who knows, they maybe able to make 6♣ or 6♥. or they maybe down in five (you have a possible club trick, and parner has some value, so I bet they can not make six, but I will not double if htey bid it). There is something to be said for pressure bidding immediately, and this hand CLEARLY calls for it, yes, even vul.

Give them the last guess. If you knew they could make a high level something or other, you might bid differently.

Quote

xxxxx
Kx
Axx
J9x

Four spades is way too much. Your partner just asked you to bid a major. 3♠ is a little too light, sure if partner carries on to four, you will make, if he passes, you may actually be too high. I suspect most of the time partner really has values, he will be enticed to bid again due to his strong spades (hehehe, sinceyou have no high cards there). I think a better approach here is to use a double or a cue-bid (3♦ to show uncertainlty (which you have). So if you double 3♣ and partner bids only 3♥ you pass. If he bids 3♠ (a pass correct kind of thing), you pass. But if he jumps to game or cue-bids, you go to 4♠. I think 3♠ here should be just competitive, and this hand is slightly too good for that, but not by much.

Quote

In highly contested auctions, what is "the best" approach.  Does slow bidding (non-preemptive calls) imply a fit with defense or does fast bidding imply fit with defense?  I think partnerships, should have some mutual understanding of this type of bidding, if one partner is zigging and the other partner is zagging this bidding can lead to disaster, however if both partners are on the same page, mutual understandings in hotly contested auctions can lead your side to prepare itself quite nicely to compete and put your opponents on the "last guess".

It is unfortunate you showed your partner doubling in these examples. If he had bid, you could have used fit jump or fit nonjump with good hands. Over the double, you have to be a lttle more creative to separate the competive bids from the invintational ones.

[inquiry]

jtfanclub, on Aug 24 2004, 01:21 PM, said:

OK, I give. Your partner doesn't have 5 spades or he'd bid them, right? So there's no double fit. Your partner's 4-3-4-2 or possibly 4-4-3-2, yes? So we have probably 10-7 and they have 9-8. 5D+4H=21...and the total tricks is 17-19.

I think I'll just pass, and hope the unexpected heart split costs them a trick.

Do you REALLY think your partner, with what amounts to a maximum of 10 hcp (this is a 40 point deck, right?), and probabaly less, would double a game forcing 2CLUBS overcall on 4243 distribution, ever? That simply is not possible. There is no reason on earth to enter this auction with a flat hand and 9/10 points maximum. Mike's assessment of 5-4 here is just about right. With 6-5 a little more aggressive call might have been used to eat up space. So 5-5, strongish 5-4 with values in two suits, or weakish 6-5 are the most likely combinations. 4-4? Get a new partner, quick.

Ben

[jtfanclub]

Quote

Do you REALLY think your partner, with what amounts to a maximum of 10 hcp (this is a 40 point deck, right?), and probabaly less, would double a game forcing 2CLUBS overcall on 4243 distribution, ever?

Ummm...OK, I give. Why is your partner bidding here? It's not to interfere with the opponents, right? Double gives them extra space, it doesn't take any away. It's not because he expects you to make anything, because they're in a GF auction.

Well, what's left? He could be hoping that you have lots of spades and can take the contract away from them at 4S. Or, he can be telling you to lead spades, even from a holding where you wouldn't normally do so (like Kxx). Both of those make perfect sense with a balanced hand.

If your partner had 5-5, he has a clear call of 2H. I mean, what is he going to do, wait for a 6-6 hand to show up? So that leaves 5-4 and 4-4. And with 5 spades and four diamonds, is it worth giving them three extra bids to show four diamonds? Nah.

He's 4-4. He's doubling not because he expects you to have six diamonds and sacrifice at the 5 level, but because he thinks a spade lead is the difference between making and setting the contract, and this is the only chance he's going to get to show it.

[Chamaco]

jtfanclub, on Aug 24 2004, 05:58 PM, said:

He's 4-4.  He's doubling not because he expects you to have six diamonds and sacrifice at the 5 level, but because he thinks a spade lead is the difference between making and setting the contract, and this is the only chance he's going to get to show it.

Double for the lead ?
It is likely pard won't lead opps 2 suits, so a spade lead is not unlikely.

Doubling with a barely decent 4432 is more likely to help declarer play double dummy on high card locations rather than helping pard to find a lead not-so-hard to find anyways.

[inquiry]

jtfanclub, on Aug 24 2004, 01:58 PM, said:

Quote

Do you REALLY think your partner, with what amounts to a maximum of 10 hcp (this is a 40 point deck, right?), and probabaly less, would double a game forcing 2CLUBS overcall on 4243 distribution, ever?

Ummm...OK, I give. Why is your partner bidding here? It's not to interfere with the opponents, right? Double gives them extra space, it doesn't take any away. It's not because he expects you to make anything, because they're in a GF auction.

Well, what's left? He could be hoping that you have lots of spades and can take the contract away from them at 4S. Or, he can be telling you to lead spades, even from a holding where you wouldn't normally do so (like Kxx). Both of those make perfect sense with a balanced hand.

If your partner had 5-5, he has a clear call of 2H. I mean, what is he going to do, wait for a 6-6 hand to show up? So that leaves 5-4 and 4-4. And with 5 spades and four diamonds, is it worth giving them three extra bids to show four diamonds? Nah.

He's 4-4. He's doubling not because he expects you to have six diamonds and sacrifice at the 5 level, but because he thinks a spade lead is the difference between making and setting the contract, and this is the only chance he's going to get to show it.

2H would show a much more distributional hand than 5-5. Even a weak 6-5 would not be good enough, at this vul.

DBL = a suggestion of shape so that partner can decide.
2H = a little more wild shape than dbl
2NT = much wilder shape.

Here goes a guestimate...

S-KJTxx
H-xxx
D-KQxx
C-x

This is a double, you could change 1S into 1D, or change one H into 1D same bid.

S-AJTxx
H-xxx
D-KQxxx
C-void

This is a 2H bid. change the diamond King to a diamond x you back to double again. Change the spade J to an X you back to double again. Change one heart to a small club and at this vulnerability, you are back to double again.

S-KJTxxx
H-xx
D-KQxxx
C-void

Here you are up to 2NT (by passing possible get out in 2♠ if the opponents lack a tit and start doubling), so you have more shape and stregnth.

First hand, you are just suggesting to your partner that you have some shape if HIS hand is suitable (which it clearly was here). Second hand, you are a little more forceful, suggesting that his hand doesn't have to be perfect to take a save, a modest fit will probably be enough. Third hand, you are telling your partner, that you are ready and willing to hear him take a sacrafice on virtually any excuse (here you are strongly suggesting he consider it).

So on one, you unlock the door, and leave the decision to partner. On two, you swing the door open and invite partner to consider stepping through with any reason. And on 3, you take the firm heel of your boot and try to kick your partner through the door. In each case, however, you then RESPECT your partners decision if he doen't go. For instance, if you bid 2NT with the third one and they 4Hhearts, you have told your story.. you should pass. Sure, 4♠ maybe great save, but your partner knows that..maybe he doesn't want to push them to an easy slam.

Bridge is a partnership game... try to get assistance from your partner when you can. When there are three ways to show the same hand (weak, other two suits), try to pick the one that BEST DESCRIBES your hand, and then let your partner make the decision for you.

As for a spade lead. They are in a game forcing situation. If you are so despirate for a spade lead, bid 2♠.. but I can't imagine the urgent need to instruct your partner to lead a spade.. he will have heard the auction, be able to see his hand, and will figure out the right lead most of the time anyway.

Ben

[jtfanclub]

Let's say the bidding goes:

1H P 2C P
3C P 3H P
4H P P P

Which seems like where this bidding was going before the X

You have...
QTx
x
QJTxx
xxx

I think this is the most likely distribution for you to have given the bidding and doubler's 4432. Wouldn't it be nice to know what to lead?

Quote

Doubling with a barely decent 4432 is more likely to help declarer play double dummy on high card locations rather than helping pard to find a lead not-so-hard to find anyways.

Your partner has given up a lot to double. He has given them bidding space, helped them play double-dummy on high card locations, and committed your side to the bidding if they redouble. You really think a four card diamond suit is worth all that? 2S takes away bidding space, doesn't reveal high cards (since you might have spade length rather than points), and doesn't commit you any higher than a double does.

If you have 5 spades, bid them (or 2H if you're 5-5). Don't mess around.
EDIT: Or pass of course. Just because you have shape doesn't mean you have to show it.

Quote

2H would show a much more distributional hand than 5-5. Even a weak 6-5 would not be good enough, at this vul.

DBL = a suggestion of shape so that partner can decide.
2H = a little more wild shape than dbl
2NT = much wilder shape.

That doesn't make any sense. You aren't stopping at 2H, so a double isn't going to save your bacon while 2H gets you set for a billion.

So if Dbl shows a suggestion of shape, 2H shows a little more wild shape, and 2NT shows a much wilder shape, what does 3C show?

SUPER EDIT WITH EXTRA SPRINKLES:
xxx
x
J10xxxx
Kxx

Here goes a guestimate...
S-KJTxx
H-xxx
D-KQxx
C-x
This is a double, you could change 1S into 1D, or change one H into 1D same bid.

They have 27 hcp. Before you bid 5D, they wouldn't have even looked for slam. Now it's going to be tough for them not to bid their 75%+ 6H.

[pclayton]

Re: 1♥ - Pass - 2♣ - ?

Lets assume we are sane enough not to wade into a 2/1 auction with a 4 by 1, or even a 5-4 (unless, I guess if the suits were really good);

Lets also assume that we have a 2♥ call to show the shape we need to compete (5-5) to suggest a high level sac;

Further, we have a 2N call to show a really extreme shape;

So where does that leave the poor double? I think the best use for a double of a game forcing 2♣ is penalty!. Why can't pard hold xx, xx, Qxx, AQJTxx? Tactical considerations aside, it will get us off the to the best lead, and may allow us to exploit a misfit. NOT all low level doubles are takeout, mind you.

By the way, I agree that 5♦ is correct in the given example.

On the 2nd hand, I don't like a responsive double, but have been sold on the merits of 3♦, instead of 3♠, my initial choice.

[jtfanclub]

pclayton, on Aug 24 2004, 03:04 PM, said:

By the way, I agree that 5♦ is correct in the given example.

I see I must tell you a tale from the Second Thousand Nights and a Night.

Now, only Allah sees all and knows all, but I have been told that many years ago the Shiekh and the Rabbi were playing a team match against Inquiry and Yzerman. On one hand, the Rabbi opened 1♥, Yzerman passed, and the bidding continued 2♣ X 3♣ 5♦. The Shiekh was about to make a call, when the director told him of another call- an emergency call from his wife. The Shiekh apologized and left the table. The others waited, and he eventually returned.

No sooner had he picked up his cards, however, than the director stopped him- it was an emergency call from his second wife! The Shiekh apologized, and later returned. "I am sorry," he said, "but my wives handle the finances, and when they disagree it is an emergency indeed". He went to pick up his cards, but once more the director stopped him.

"Surely, it cannot be my third wife!" said the Shiekh.
"Surely, it can be" said the director.

"I am so sorry," said the Shiekh, "But if I take a call from my first wife, and then take a call from my second wife, and then I refuse to take a call from my third wife, I shall never hear the end of it!"

"If you must take the call, take the call" said the Rabbi, "We are ahead of the other table, so we have a bit of time", and once more the Shiekh left the room.

"I am tired of waiting- let us look at the hands, and see what there is to be made" said Inquiry, and the others agreed. They saw:

Scoring: IMP

W=Rabbi
N=Yzerman
E=Shiekh
S=Inquiry
N and S provided their own hands.

---

"Well," said the Rabbi, "The bidding surely tells him that I have a single diamond, and places the club, so he has only three losers. With my opening count, a 6♥ bid must be correct, and indeed it is." The others agreed, and the card was filled out.

"A terrible bid, the five diamonds," said the Rabbi, "For we never would have found slam without it. But even more terrible is the double, for it encouraged the five diamonds."

"Nonsense", said Inquiry, "It is merely a lucky placement of the cards. Allow me to switch some honors with the Shiekh, and I shall show you." The Rabbi agreed, and Inquiry took the JS, KQD, and the small club from his hand and exchanged it for the AxD, QC, and the small spade from the Shiekh's hand, careful to keep the distribution and pont count the same.

"There," said Yzerman, "A thousand dinars says five diamonds was the correct bid now!"

"Well, I am always happy to make a donation to a worthy cause," said the Rabbi. "I shall take your bet".

The Shiekh returned, and so worried was he that he forgot was his cards were before. But he was clear on what his cards were now, and it was clear what he should do, and before you can say it, Yzerman was playing five diamonds doubled.

Things went and things came, and Yzerman was down three. "A bad bid, the five diamonds", said the Rabbi, "For the limit of the hand was 620 and you gave us 800."

"You had four hearts!" said Yzerman to the Shiekh. "Why did you not say five hearts?"

The Shiekh showed his (altered) hand:

---

"How could I bid 5 hearts on this?" Said he, "If you had bid four spades, perhaps, but I have five losers, and if my partner has three winners to make 5 hearts surely he has two winners to set five diamonds by three tricks. Had you bid four spades, I would have considered it. But your diamond bid shows my marriage in diamonds to be wretched...as wretched as my own!"

"Oh, I would not call your marriages wretched", said the Rabbi, as he collected his thousand dinars. "Think of how good they are with the finances!"

[paulhar]

jtfanclub, on Aug 24 2004, 05:50 PM, said:

"I am tired of waiting- let us look at the hands, and see what there is to be made" said Inquiry, and the others agreed.  They saw:

Scoring: IMP

W=Rabbi
N=Yzerman
E=Shiekh
S=Inquiry
N and S provided their own hands.

---

"Well,"  said the Rabbi, "The bidding surely tells him that I have a single diamond, and places the club, so he has only three losers.  With my opening count, a 6♥ bid must be correct, and indeed it is."  The others agreed, and the card was filled out.

This must be some other Inquiry, for the one we know and love would have certainly noticed that 7C is laydown with the same club finesse that is required to make 6H. Your shiekh & Ben would also no doubt point out that with the known singleton diamond opposite, the spade can always be discarded on the long heart and clubs should always be chosen for trump.

I've noticed that on not only this thread but others that posters have put words in Ben's mouth. I plead guilty but noticed that others have done the same. Some of us must be wrong. Someday perhaps his avatar will swing that mallet and smite those of us who he disagrees with

[inquiry]

Somehow, I suspect that they are bidding slam with that hand, whatever we do. The advantage to the jump to 5♦ here is that, they have no way to investigate the best spot. What you might actually do here is keep them in 6♥ for a push or a huge win for you, as 7♣ make. In addition, shoving them around might well push them 7♥.

As I said, earlier, if I don;t know what they can make, neither will they. 5♦ was right to begin with, and it is right to end with.

[luke warm]

well mike, here's my 10 cents (as one of our favorite rappers says, my 2 cents is free)

i absolutely love the 5D bid, the only downside to it is if the ops were gonna stop in game but now go on to a making slam (but heck, even 5 something might not make for them)

on the other, i agree with you that 4S might be a tad too much since they weren't in a game forcing auction (yet)... my first thought was 3S, but the arguments for 3D are pretty good... the responsive double is just ok imo, mainly cause i'd not really know what to do over 3H (tho the same can be said for 3D)... heck on 3rd thought i think 3S would be my bid

[jtfanclub]

paulhar, on Aug 24 2004, 06:02 PM, said:

I've noticed that on not only this thread but others that posters have put words in Ben's mouth.

This Inquiry lived a thousand years before our current Inquiry (no relation).

Seriously, on both hands I gave the aprocraphal Inquiry, bidding of:

1H P 2C 2S
3C 4S

Makes it impossible for them to find the correct contract, while an X followed by 5D makes it easy. In the first case, they no longer have the room to explore to find the lone diamond. In the second case, 4S is down only 2 for a successful sacrifice, while 5H is down one and 5D is down 3.

Since you need the spades as a side suit, and the implication from the bidding is that the spades will split, there is at most one trick difference between playing 5♦ and 4♠, even with this ridiculous fit.

There is no reason to tell the opponents you have a diamond fit. Use the double for something else.

In fact, I'd like to see a single example where the double showing a 4 card diamond suit to go with the long spades is a good bid over simply bidding 2 spades.

Quote

This must be some other Inquiry, for the one we know and love would have certainly noticed that 7C is laydown with the same club finesse that is required to make 6H.

On a diamond lead or heart lead, you no longer need the club finesse to make 6 hearts. You take 6 hearts, 4 clubs, a diamond, and spade, losing the lead at most once.

[Yzerman]

Good feedback !!!

Some general comments;

A - Entering auction with flat (4432) hands in power auctions (2C game force) is lunacy and begging to go for phone number @ imps, teammates will not be very happy.

B - Pclayton's response of cuebids, are consistent with "Cappelletti cuebids" (which incidently the cappellettis dont even play) have some merit however they also take away ability to play 2D when our sides hands misfit (2H cuebid might commit hand to 3D.

C - Lead director, as mentioned in responses are of little value because partner must have rocks in his head to lead opps suit on this bidding. HOWEVER, on this given hand the double will let partner in on fact you have some high cards and he might now have enough information to lead his stiff heart with trump entry to get in for a heart ruff (in the event the opps land in club contract). (Hint, Hint .. this was the ACTUAL case on the hand).

My hand for the takeout double of 2C was this;

AQxxx
xxxx
K10xx
void

At the time, it seemed like a perfectly harmless double. If we have a diamond fit, and opps have heart fit this will take a TON of tricks, maybe 11 or 12. If we have a spade fit, we are nicely positioned for a save on 4 and 5 level. With an ace, I was confident entering this auction with a fast trick on defense and opps may be headed for trouble with clubs not behaving.

Furthermore, as I play more bridge in the present, most people would subscribe to the fact that ALOT of players are bidding with less and less values, so despite LHO opening 1H and RHO bidding 2C, I do not want to have a spade game or slam stolen from under my feet because the opps are bidding with marginal values. I think my shape and my 5 card suit give me some safety on the 2 level if I have stepped out of line in a misfit, and double allows some flexibility on the 2 and 3 level if partner has a small diamond fit.

The other hand (1D-P-2C-X) takeout double, favorable vulnerability, was as follows;

AJ10x
Axxxxx
xx
Q

This was my partners hand for the takeout, I think was VERY reasonable double (although some would promote 2H overcall) on his behalf. His double combines, safety on the 2 level (hearts), an alternate place to play (spades) and suggests something to defend with. All in all, I think this is very good hand to double with at these colors.

Regards,
MAL

[paulhar]

jtfanclub, on Aug 24 2004, 11:46 PM, said:

On a diamond lead or heart lead, you no longer need the club finesse to make 6 hearts. You take 6 hearts, 4 clubs, a diamond, and spade, losing the lead at most once.

What six hearts do you take without giving up a spade? With the club finesse not working, you also give up a club, and 1S and 1C is too much to lose at 6H.

[paulhar]

jtfanclub, on Aug 24 2004, 01:45 PM, said:

They have 27 hcp. Before you bid 5D, they wouldn't have even looked for slam. Now it's going to be tough for them not to bid their 75%+ 6H.

A good point. Maybe you should bid 4S (!) so each opponent thinks their partner is short in spades. You should be able to take 5 or 6 tricks undoubled. If they double, now you can run to 5D. But if they go to slam depending on the spade shortness, your partner might be surprised when the S-A K cash but I think he'll forgive you.

[mikestar]

On the first hand 5D seems about right. Kit Woolsey in Matchpoints
says that the best way to put the opponents to the last guess in preemptive auctions is to bid to the level where you don't know what their correct action is--odds favor that they won't know either.

The Precision auction is a tough one. 1H-2C in principle shows 22+ minimum combined HCP, but 20-21 are not uncommon and 19 has been known to happen. 3S is about right on values but directs a poor lead. I'm doubtful about the best way to proceed.

[jtfanclub]

mikestar, on Aug 25 2004, 09:54 AM, said:

On the first hand 5D seems about right. Kit Woolsey in Matchpoints
says that the best way to put the opponents to the last guess in preemptive auctions is to bid to the level where you don't know what their correct action is--odds favor that they won't know either.

Arrgh...still no examples, still nobody actually trying to figure out what their partner might have.

You're bidding to the level who don't know what their correct action is, right? And that's the five level, right?

So tell us, what is their correct bid to make after 4♠?

[Gerben47]

Mike Lawrence gives explicit examples of the t/o double after LHO opens and RHO makes a 2/1 response. It shows 5-5 or a very good 5-4 in the missing suits and working honors. More extreme hands with less HCP bid 2NT.

Example hand:

KQTxx
x
KQ9xx
xx

Double.

QJTxx
-
QJTxxx
xx

Bid 2NT.

You bid 5♦ and not 4♠ because your ♦ fit will be much, much larger than your ♠ fit.

Gerben