[NickToll]

This seems to me the perfect hand for 2♠ (solid spades, or game forcing with a fit in hearts and five good spades), followed by 4♦ (heart raise, good spades, singleton diamond). The immediate Splinter suggests something in clubs too, which I don't have, whereas the Soloway sequence is much more descriptive.

[ArtK78]

peachy, on 2010-November-19, 00:46, said:

Here is an article on Steve Robinson's web page, where several experts discuss this very topic
http://www.districts...%202006-06.aspx

I like the comment at the very end of the article, which stated my view on this question quite nicely. I assume that the comment was added by Steve Robinson:

When you use Jacoby 2NT, you want to become the captain. When you splinter you want opener to become the captain. In other words, you Jacoby 2NT when you want to learn about opener’s hand. You splinter when you want opener to learn about your hand.

How do you decide which one is appropriate? That is a matter of judgment and experience. However, there are some guidelines. If you can describe your hand nearly perfectly with a splinter bid, that is the route you should take. If your hand is very strong, it is likely that you should be the captain and use Jacoby 2NT to request information from partner. Also, you know that you need only to obtain some very specific information from partner to place the contract accurately, you should become the captain and use Jacoby 2NT.

The example hand is somewhat in-between the two extremes, and either route might work. For that matter, bidding 1♠ over 1♥ might work. I would probably bid 2NT since a diamond splinter over a 1♥ opening leaves no room for partner to explore for slam below game.

[Zelandakh]

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2010-November-19, 09:55, said:

I like the idea of the 2S!-jump to show three things with one bid:

1) GF
2) 4 cd Ht raise ( like Jacoby ) and
3) Sp side suit

I'm hung up on follow-ups, though.... it seems it could get complicated.
( I've been trying to figure out something myself for a useful 2S! ( over a 1H open) and I'm pulling my hair out!

Opener may have 4 cards Sp ( a double-fit ) or not... does he show this as a 1st priority ?
One or both hands may have shortness ... or not.
Does Opener have "extras" or not ?

Also for the 2S! response:

Can Responder's Sp suit be only 4 cards ?
Can Responder have no shortness? .. such as 5 4 2 2 or 4 4 ( 3 2 or 2 3 )?

The 1H - 2S bid I was mentioning has nothing whatsoever to do with spades. It shows 4+ card support, a side suit shortage, and either invitational (~10-12) or in-between (~16-19) strength. Your suggestion sounds like a game-forcing fit jump. An obvious scheme might be to use 2NT to show any minimum and higher bids to show extras. Showing a double fit via 3S would surely be the top priority there enabling 4 level minor cues and 6KCB as we have discussed in the 2NT auction. After a 2NT minimum I think I would use 3C as a relay with 3D shortage and 3H club shortage, but switching 3C and 3H is logical and also fine. Again Opener can show the spade double-fit easily.

Of course you could make things much more complicated and add some steps for voids, extra trump length, or whatever but this seems to be a reasonable starting point.

[matmat]

any love for a Soloway jump?

[mikeh]

kenrexford, on 2010-November-19, 10:37, said:

What?!?! Mike, are you serious?

So, you will start with 1♠ and get the likely 2♦ rebid from partner. Now, to establiush a GF, you presumably will bid 3♣? Then, when partner bids 3NT, what's your plan?

Ken, you have surely got to be joking, if you think that the 'problem' auction you fear is any kind of problem at all. Do you ever listen to auctions?

Think about the sequence you gave....I bid 3♣ FSF over 2♦, and partner bids 3N...what's he got?

He has 5=4 in the reds and probably 1=3 in the blacks. He has no significant extras since he made a call that we will often pass. We now pull 3N to 4♥, announcing a hand with slam interest, otherwise we would have jumped to 4♥ over his (non-forcing and therefore limited) 2♦ rebid. So he knows we have primary spades, real heart support and some extras but not a lot, since we have also made a bid that is non-forcing.

Now...is this perfect? No, of course not. He is still in the dark about some important specifics, but bear in mind that with most of our hcp opposite shortness, this hand actually isn't as strong as it started out to be: x KQxxx KQxx A10x is a very strong hand for him in the circumstances, and slam is not very good on the (almost) marked club lead.

So, I will admit that IF he has a 1=5=4=3 hand with an ordinary opener, I may lose a little accuracy, altho it usually won't matter. But if he raises spades, rebids notrump, rebids 2♣, rebids hearts...all of which are collectively far more probable than your feared but not fearsome sequence, I will be at least as well positioned as any splinterers or 2N bidders. Maybe you wouldn't be? But, as is evident from many threads, you and I don't exactly bid alike, and I am comfortable that I would be ok.

[mikestar13]

I voted splinter, but with 5 good ♠, the hand has a lot more playing strength than I envisioned. Worth 2♠ if playing SJS (especially Soloway). If playing WJS (or some other treatment)--very common these days, I use WJS myself, I don't mind 1♠ followed by FSF at all.

[kenrexford]

ArtK78, on 2010-November-19, 12:23, said:

I like the comment at the very end of the article, which stated my view on this question quite nicely. I assume that the comment was added by Steve Robinson:

When you use Jacoby 2NT, you want to become the captain. When you splinter you want opener to become the captain. In other words, you Jacoby 2NT when you want to learn about opener’s hand. You splinter when you want opener to learn about your hand.

How do you decide which one is appropriate? That is a matter of judgment and experience. However, there are some guidelines. If you can describe your hand nearly perfectly with a splinter bid, that is the route you should take. If your hand is very strong, it is likely that you should be the captain and use Jacoby 2NT to request information from partner. Also, you know that you need only to obtain some very specific information from partner to place the contract accurately, you should become the captain and use Jacoby 2NT.

The example hand is somewhat in-between the two extremes, and either route might work. For that matter, bidding 1♠ over 1♥ might work. I would probably bid 2NT since a diamond splinter over a 1♥ opening leaves no room for partner to explore for slam below game.

The corollary to Robinson's comment (with which I agree), which is why I ended up where I ended up, is that a 2/1 sequence is one where you do not want to commit, yet, to a determination as to who should be captain. In other words, the reason why a 2/1 GF sequence works better (IMO) on the "in between" hands is that you defer that question (who is captain) until after more info is exchanged.

So, by bidding 2♣ (ifd systemically allowed), you retain ability to defer or seize as things develop, while prepping to set trumps on route before that call is made.

[kenrexford]

mikeh, on 2010-November-19, 17:34, said:

Ken, you have surely got to be joking, if you think that the 'problem' auction you fear is any kind of problem at all. Do you ever listen to auctions?

Think about the sequence you gave....I bid 3♣ FSF over 2♦, and partner bids 3N...what's he got?

He has 5=4 in the reds and probably 1=3 in the blacks. He has no significant extras since he made a call that we will often pass. We now pull 3N to 4♥, announcing a hand with slam interest, otherwise we would have jumped to 4♥ over his (non-forcing and therefore limited) 2♦ rebid. So he knows we have primary spades, real heart support and some extras but not a lot, since we have also made a bid that is non-forcing.

Now...is this perfect? No, of course not. He is still in the dark about some important specifics, but bear in mind that with most of our hcp opposite shortness, this hand actually isn't as strong as it started out to be: x KQxxx KQxx A10x is a very strong hand for him in the circumstances, and slam is not very good on the (almost) marked club lead.

So, I will admit that IF he has a 1=5=4=3 hand with an ordinary opener, I may lose a little accuracy, altho it usually won't matter. But if he raises spades, rebids notrump, rebids 2♣, rebids hearts...all of which are collectively far more probable than your feared but not fearsome sequence, I will be at least as well positioned as any splinterers or 2N bidders. Maybe you wouldn't be? But, as is evident from many threads, you and I don't exactly bid alike, and I am comfortable that I would be ok.

I'll concede that point as very valid. 1♠ as an option may be superior to 2NT or a Splinter, especially if the style of bidding better caters to that option over the 2/1 option. I still think that sucks over 2/1 sequences, but perhaps you cannot bid 2/1 because it would mislead in your approach or because the predicted sequence after 2♣ in your approach would suck more. Been there.

[han]

I would bid 1S. It is true that I won't be able to show my 4-card heart support.

The alternatives for me are 2C (GF relay) and 4D. My hand is too strong for the 2NT raise which we play more limited. I don't like 2C since after hearing partner's shape and strength I won't often be able to place the contract.

I don't like 4D because the spades are so strong and the clubs are so weak. There is also no room left after 4D which makes it worse. 4D is my second choice though, I play this as a strong splinter (about 13-15) so it is right in terms of values and support.

I wouldn't be surprised if 4D works out more often than 1S.

[masse24]

---

FWIW Both hands (finally) shown above.

[ArtK78]

masse24, on 2011-August-09, 07:29, said:

---

FWIW Both hands (finally) shown above.

I know that I could not sleep nights since last November waiting for both hands to be shown.

[Zelandakh]

masse24, on 2011-August-09, 07:29, said:

FWIW Both hands (finally) shown above.

So the auction
1H - 2S
2N - 4D
4N - 5D
6H looks very easy*

* where
2S = 4+ hearts, mini-splinter or in-between splinter
4D = in-between splinter and singleton diamond
4N = xRKCB
5D = 1 or 3

[TWO4BRIDGE]

Zelandakh, on 2011-August-09, 09:15, said:

So the auction
1H - 2S
2N - 4D
4N - 5D
6H looks very easy*

* where
2S = 4+ hearts, mini-splinter or in-between splinter
4D = in-between splinter and singleton diamond
4N = xRKCB
5D = 1 or 3

I think you meant 5D = 1 or 4 ...
( I assume 4NT! = xRKCB is Meckwell's Voidwood for Hts with a Sp void ...)

Regardless, what if that 1 key card ( excluding the ♠A ) = the ♣ACE !
That would mean you are missing the ♥A and possibly the ♥Q and ♥J !!
which could mean 2 trump losers.... eventhough you have 10 trumps.

It would be nice to "ask" for the ♥Q, but no room available after the 5D reply.
You could ask if playing 4NT! = x 1430 and 5C = 1 key; thus, 5D = ♥Q-ask

But, alas, you find the ♥Q missing as well

[jogs]

matmat, on 2010-November-19, 14:46, said:

any love for a Soloway jump?

NickToll already suggested 2♠. I think that's the best response. Second choice is 1♠. Don't like 2NT or 4♦. Splinters should be mostly 4441 hands or hands which have no better response. 5431 hands with a poor five card suit.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

It doesn't matter which method you use on this deal.

As I pointed out in my post # 33, when you find out you are missing ONE KEY card, it could be the ♥Ace. And if your method permits, you will also find out you are missing the ♥Q.
And eventhough you have 10 trumps, you will lose at least 2 trumps if you are missing the A, Q and J.

[JLOGIC]

I think 2N is a great start. If partner shows short clubs obviously that's gold...partner having short clubs is way more important than us having short diamonds despite us being the short trump because we have a source of tricks. If partner doesn't show short clubs, hopefully we can have a cuebidding auction. That should be fine imo. Yes, I am basically gambling on the spades, we might get to 6H needing a spade hook or something...whatever. Treating this hand like AKQTx ATxx x J9x which I assume everyone would bid 2N with just seems practical, sure we'd love to focus on the spade Q but ken pointed out the problem with 1S, we won't have time to set hearts, show our 4th heart, and still have some delicate auction...let alone find out about a stiff club.

Splintering is absurd, our hand is so powerful. To even compare it to something like Axxxx ATxx x KJx seems crazy to me. They are just much different hands, and should be treated as such. Showing short diamonds and a game force and giving partner no room and expecting that to be the best way to solve all the issues on the hand and find the right spot the highest percentage of the time is just lol.

Note: I am purposely not comparing any of this to a 2C relay, I don't really know how it would work out since I don't play it (presumably I will be able to find out about shape at a lower level and start cuebidding sooner, at the loss of showing my 4th heart ever.)

[JLOGIC]

And yeah, a strong jump shift followed by bidding diamonds to show short diamonds, long hearts, and spades is just the complete nuts. Partner will evaluate heavily for the SQ, good trumps, and know what he needs to know about the minors. Ship that, if only I played strong jump shifts!

[Yu18772]

In our system direct splinter is 12-16 and 4 card support, so thats what I bid. I dont worry at all about the club control, as partner will hold at most 8 hcp in the major suits, so if he decides to go for slam opposite x♦, he is bound to have useful ♣.
The problem with Jacoby for me is that you dont really want to know if partner has single spade, you want to see if his points are KQJ♦, Axxx♦ or anywhere else, and if you bid 2NT KQJx♦ will look to him as potential gold....until the dummy goes down

[Zelandakh]

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2011-August-09, 10:11, said:

I think you meant 5D = 1 or 4 ...
( I assume 4NT! = xRKCB is Meckwell's Voidwood for Hts with a Sp void ...)

Both correct.

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2011-August-09, 10:11, said:

Regardless, what if that 1 key card ( excluding the ♠A ) = the ♣ACE !
That would mean you are missing the ♥A and possibly the ♥Q and ♥J !!
which could mean 2 trump losers.... eventhough you have 10 trumps.

Partner has shown ~13-16hcp and at least 4 of the remaining 7 hearts. How likely do you think it is that the opps have ♥AQJ? I agree this is possible, I disagree that it should stop us bidding slam here. Heck, even if partner does have the nightmare hand we can still pick up any 2-1 break with the ace onside. We've all been in worse...

I do not feel I will be better off after 2NT, at least in the structure that I use. After 1H - 2NT, Opener is borderline between 3D (extras with shortage) and 3NT (super-max with spade shortage). Now whether North shows spade shortage or South shows good spades, it is not really encouraging to the other. On this hand the general strength is such that I think slam is going to be reached whichever path is taken. Nonetheless I think it is easier after an in-between splinter, albeit noting that JL is ranged against me on this. FWiiW I agree that a simple splinter is a terrible bid. Hopefully Justin was only arguing against this and not the stronger version.

[Lurpoa]

masse24, on 2010-November-18, 21:50, said:

---

Just curious if we get close to a consensus here...

♥

Hello Dear♥,


more than a question of system, it is a question of partnership.
Please agree with partner on the limit of each possible bid,


♥