[straube]

1C P 1D P 2C X is penalty or takeout?

1C P 1D X 2C X is penalty or takeout?

1S P 1N P 2S X is penalty or takeout?

1D P 1N P P X is penalty or takeout?

I'm thinking penalty for the first three and takeout for the fourth.

Ran these by our local expert (he is really studied on this sort of thing) and his answers were...

1. takeout
2. penalty
3. penalty
4. penalty

Have to say the last one surprised me.

[mgoetze]

straube, on 2010-November-18, 11:26, said:

1C P 1D P 2C X is penalty or takeout?

Just plain silly. Takeout, I guess.

Quote

1C P 1D X 2C X is penalty or takeout?

Responsive (i.e. takeout).

Quote

1S P 1N P 2S X is penalty or takeout?

Penalty.

Quote

1D P 1N P P X is penalty or takeout?

Takeout.

[WellSpyder]

straube, on 2010-November-18, 11:26, said:

1C P 1D P 2C X is penalty or takeout?

1C P 1D X 2C X is penalty or takeout?

1S P 1N P 2S X is penalty or takeout?

1D P 1N P P X is penalty or takeout?

I'm thinking penalty for the first three and takeout for the fourth.

My normal agreements match your thoughts in all four cases.

[mtvesuvius]

1, 2, 4 - Takeout.
3 - Penalty

[dake50]

What is your reopening understandings?
What will partner do if he's in passout seat?
Now those pre-reopenings must be some situation
likely to gain that will not have partner reopening.
I expect both majors (or other major) with some shape,
shy of immediate action.
Of course, I never trap pass, so those cases are
considerable for those who do.

[mtvesuvius]

dake50, on 2010-November-18, 17:32, said:

Of course, I never trap pass, so those cases are
considerable for those who do.

LOL

[straube]

mtvesuvius, on 2010-November-18, 17:00, said:

1, 2, 4 - Takeout.
3 - Penalty

I can at least a little point in having 1 takeout. You might have say 4-4-1-4 and be unsuitable for immediate action. After partner makes a takeout X of 1C P 1D, do we really need a responsive double here? If we have a 4-cd major, just bid it. If we don't, probably right to pass here.

[mtvesuvius]

straube, on 2010-November-18, 17:33, said:

I can at least a little point in having 1 takeout. You might have say 4-4-1-4 and be unsuitable for immediate action. After partner makes a takeout X of 1C P 1D, do we really need a responsive double here? If we have a 4-cd major, just bid it. If we don't, probably right to pass here.

True, and 2♦ can be used as pick a major - Perhaps this should just be value-showing. I don't think it's right to have a penalty double here though...

[mgoetze]

straube, on 2010-November-18, 17:33, said:

After partner makes a takeout X of 1C P 1D, do we really need a responsive double here?

I guess you don't need one, if you think 4-3 fits are just as good as 4-4 fits, and 4-4 fits just as good as 5-4 fits, etc.

[Fluffy]

I think all of them are take out, I play too much match points probably.

The 4th is the one where I have the most doubts so I think I wouldn't make a great pair with straube .

Third one can be played as 2-way double, where your cards should tell you what is going on, so no need to define it.

[gwnn]

They all sort of look like penalty doubles to me,

In the first case 4414 with insufficient concentration for a 1M overcall yet really must bid now when partner does not rate to have 5 cards in either major and they have no proven fit (of course this last one depends on their system)?

In the second case if I want to show strength I have 2♦ and partner can never pass the double unless double shows at least a mild interest in penalising.

In the third case I'm afraid of heights and this is a great auction to get penalties from. That said, I'd like 1m-p-1N-p; 2m-x to be for takeout because it's a 99% signoff.

In the fourth case acting in balancing seat is very dangerous on our little 4414 ish hand since we could have no fit, opener could have a lot of 4 card majors.

Of course it would be nice to have firm agreements about all these doubles. I unfortunately rarely made these agreements and sometimes it was a little uncomfortable. I'm just saying what I think the doubles ought to mean and I'm flexible on some of them.

Some of the 4 could be played nicely as "penalty or takeout", though.

[straube]

Fluffy, on 2010-November-18, 18:30, said:

I think all of them are take out, I play too much match points probably.

The 4th is the one where I have the most doubts so I think I wouldn't make a great pair with straube .

Third one can be played as 2-way double, where your cards should tell you what is going on, so no need to define it.

I think the fourth one is often a fit auction...especially for those pairs that play inverted minors and have no way to show a simple raise (i.e. 2D is forcing and 3D is weak). This is especially true for 1C P 1N P P so we're much more likely to need a takeout dbl than a penalty double in these situations.

Contrast this to 1S P 1N P P where this is a nf auction and penalty has more value.

[Flameous]

1. Neither seems to make much sense. If I had a T/O, would have doubled already. Penalty comes up really rarely and I doubt I'd want to make it even then cause the bidding isn't over. I could see the point of it being "optional penalty" with some 4414 hand, so partner can bid major or try to penalize.

2. This is a clear penalty to me, cause you have two suits to bid and even 2D available. However, switch the suits and T/O makes sense again.

3. Penalty

4. Flawed T/O, something like 12-14HCP and only doubleton in other major. Main use is to try to push opps away from nv 1NT.

[Free]

I'd take them all as penalty, but I'm not claiming it's perfect.

[andy_h]

1. Takeout, as my meta agreement of (1m) (1M) (2m) X is takeout.
2. Responsive (Takeout) since 4th hand usually has both majors but can be a bit flawed with say 4324/4333.
3. I like this as penalties.
4. I like this as 2-way which gwnn referred to.

[Fluffy]

gwnn, on 2010-November-18, 18:54, said:

In the first case 4414 with insufficient concentration for a 1M overcall yet really must bid now when partner does not rate to have 5 cards in either major and they have no proven fit (of course this last one depends on their system)?

The hand I am thinking for takeout is more a 4423 with 8-10 HCP, not opening values with a flaw.

[Hanoi5]

Fluffy, on 2010-November-18, 18:30, said:

I think all of them are take out, I don't play too much match points probably.

FYP

[pooltuna]

They are all DSIP

[rduran1216]

I think the only onea that smell like takeout are the first and last. The others look like having a stack behind the stack and are certainly penalty I think.

[rduran1216]

pooltuna, on 2010-November-19, 08:42, said:

They are all DSIP

I can see this for the most part, but I dont see how 1D p 1NT p p x can be penalty. Why didnt that person bid 1NT over 1D, or overcall a suit, or dbl then bid for 17-18+.

I think its a hand that doesn't wanna sell out for 1NT at matchpoints.