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Ordinarily, when I double and partner takes a free bid and I introduce a suit, it's a 1-rd force.
For instance 1D X 1H (1S) P 2C is forcing because partner didn't have to bid.
After 1D X P 1N P...
partner has shown some values but they are in the opponent's suit.
Would a 2S bid be forcing here? I think not.
1D X P 1N P 2S forcing?
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Posted 2010-November-18, 11:17
#2
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Posted 2010-November-18, 13:16
Neither of them is forcing. They both show very good hands but non forcing.
I do not think 1♦-DBL-(1♥)-1♠ promise anything but ♠ suit.
JTxxx xxx Jxxx x is more than enough for me to bid 1♠. Yes he didnt have to bid 1♠, but 1♠ only shows where our fit is and that he has real ♠. Without 1♥ bid by RHO, 1♠response can be made even with 3 cards ♠ KJx xx xxxxx xxx for example.
I would also bid 1♠ with QJxx x xxxx xxx but i would pass with QJxx xxx xxx xxx
So 1♠ after RHO bid 1♥= i have ♠ suit, this is our suit. If u don't bid it, u don't have it.
Assume it went
East will take your pass in consideration when chosing to lead between ♣ and ♠ suit. Also in some freak hands, your 1♠ bid with 2 hcp and real ♠ suit, it maybe enough to trigger pd to bid 4♠ over their 4♥ for instance, add some partscore competitions to that as well.
I do not think 1♦-DBL-(1♥)-1♠ promise anything but ♠ suit.
JTxxx xxx Jxxx x is more than enough for me to bid 1♠. Yes he didnt have to bid 1♠, but 1♠ only shows where our fit is and that he has real ♠. Without 1♥ bid by RHO, 1♠response can be made even with 3 cards ♠ KJx xx xxxxx xxx for example.
I would also bid 1♠ with QJxx x xxxx xxx but i would pass with QJxx xxx xxx xxx
So 1♠ after RHO bid 1♥= i have ♠ suit, this is our suit. If u don't bid it, u don't have it.
Assume it went
East will take your pass in consideration when chosing to lead between ♣ and ♠ suit. Also in some freak hands, your 1♠ bid with 2 hcp and real ♠ suit, it maybe enough to trigger pd to bid 4♠ over their 4♥ for instance, add some partscore competitions to that as well.
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Posted 2010-November-18, 14:58
depends on your double standards.
There was a thread not so long ago where experts advotaced 2 minor over 1NT to be non forcing and rather weak, they had a point.
My double+ bid suit are pretty sound and for me it makes no sense to play them non forcing after partner shows anything. So 2 major or higher should be pretty strong
There was a thread not so long ago where experts advotaced 2 minor over 1NT to be non forcing and rather weak, they had a point.
My double+ bid suit are pretty sound and for me it makes no sense to play them non forcing after partner shows anything. So 2 major or higher should be pretty strong
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Posted 2010-November-18, 15:09
straube, on 2010-November-18, 11:17, said:
Ordinarily, when I double and partner takes a free bid and I introduce a suit, it's a 1-rd force.
For instance 1D X 1H (1S) P 2C is forcing because partner didn't have to bid.
After 1D X P 1N P...
partner has shown some values but they are in the opponent's suit.
Would a 2S bid be forcing here? I think not.
For instance 1D X 1H (1S) P 2C is forcing because partner didn't have to bid.
After 1D X P 1N P...
partner has shown some values but they are in the opponent's suit.
Would a 2S bid be forcing here? I think not.
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Posted 2010-November-18, 15:14
Non forcing and does not promise a great hand either, although I think you can make ant argument that 2♣ isn't forcing, 2♠ is and 2♥ can be either.
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Posted 2010-November-18, 15:43
For me, this is forcing.
In fairness, the answer depends on how you act over 1♦ with any of 5404/5413/5422/5314/5323 with 11-15 hcp and so on.
I would bid 1♠ on almost all such hands...maybe not often on 5404, tho even then I might bid 1♠ intending to double later...it depends on the hand and suit.
Obviously, if one does double with mere opening values and a 5 card spade suit, on more than a rare basis, you will need 2♠ here as nf.
But then you need to cater to the big double.....you could cuebid and then show your suit, or you could jump to 3♠..the latter must show 6, I would think, while the former maybe only 5.
1N is a constructive bid, typically played as 8-10 or 7-10. The argument in favour of 2minor, after a t.o. double fetches 1N, as weak is a far cry from this sequence.
With 1=4=3=5 for example, one would want to double 1♠ with 12 hcp, and now it is almost alwys safer to play 2♣ than 1N. The situation is quite different over 1♦ x, because 1♦, in standard, is often not long, and doubler could always overcall a 5 card major, while not being able or willing to overcall 1M with an indifferent 5 card minor.
So i would play 2♠ as forcing.
In fairness, the answer depends on how you act over 1♦ with any of 5404/5413/5422/5314/5323 with 11-15 hcp and so on.
I would bid 1♠ on almost all such hands...maybe not often on 5404, tho even then I might bid 1♠ intending to double later...it depends on the hand and suit.
Obviously, if one does double with mere opening values and a 5 card spade suit, on more than a rare basis, you will need 2♠ here as nf.
But then you need to cater to the big double.....you could cuebid and then show your suit, or you could jump to 3♠..the latter must show 6, I would think, while the former maybe only 5.
1N is a constructive bid, typically played as 8-10 or 7-10. The argument in favour of 2minor, after a t.o. double fetches 1N, as weak is a far cry from this sequence.
With 1=4=3=5 for example, one would want to double 1♠ with 12 hcp, and now it is almost alwys safer to play 2♣ than 1N. The situation is quite different over 1♦ x, because 1♦, in standard, is often not long, and doubler could always overcall a 5 card major, while not being able or willing to overcall 1M with an indifferent 5 card minor.
So i would play 2♠ as forcing.
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Posted 2010-November-18, 15:45
Fluffy, on 2010-November-18, 14:58, said:
depends on your double standards.
There was a thread not so long ago where experts advotaced 2 minor over 1NT to be non forcing and rather weak, they had a point.
My double+ bid suit are pretty sound and for me it makes no sense to play them non forcing after partner shows anything. So 2 major or higher should be pretty strong
There was a thread not so long ago where experts advotaced 2 minor over 1NT to be non forcing and rather weak, they had a point.
My double+ bid suit are pretty sound and for me it makes no sense to play them non forcing after partner shows anything. So 2 major or higher should be pretty strong
Do you have a link to that thread?
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Posted 2010-November-18, 18:19
No sorry, just my memories 
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Posted 2010-November-18, 18:29
Fluffy, on 2010-November-18, 18:19, said:
No sorry, just my memories
I remember a local expert telling me that something like 1H dbl P 1N P 2C shouldn't show more than opening strength. The reasoning was that there is often a minor suit fit available which is superior to a 1N contract. Advancer may well suppress a 4-cd minor and doubler may have a 5 cd minor (e.g. 4-1-3-5).
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Posted 2010-November-18, 18:39
of course it's forcing. no other meaning makes any sense to me. Well maybe it's because I don't double on a hand that would want to bid a nonforcing 2♠ ever. 2♣ as nonforcing makes sense and I could go either way. Especially if it goes 1♠-x-p-1NT for example, 2m should be NF probably. But not 2♥ (I like to overcall on all those disgusting 2533's).
... and I can prove it with my usual, flawless logic.
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Posted 2010-November-18, 19:05
gwnn, on 2010-November-18, 18:39, said:
of course it's forcing. no other meaning makes any sense to me. Well maybe it's because I don't double on a hand that would want to bid a nonforcing 2♠ ever. 2♣ as nonforcing makes sense and I could go either way. Especially if it goes 1♠-x-p-1NT for example, 2m should be NF probably. But not 2♥ (I like to overcall on all those disgusting 2533's).
I'm still thinking nf. We don't play (for example) 1D X P 1H P 1S as forcing, right?
But 1D X P 1N shows mostly values in the enemy suit...values less likely to assist us. Plus doubler has now to introduce his suit at the 2-level as opposed to the 1-level. It still would show a good hand.
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Posted 2010-November-18, 19:13
Could you show me that special hand that really needs 2♠ non forcing?
... and I can prove it with my usual, flawless logic.
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Posted 2010-November-18, 19:25
Eric Rodwell: I don’t think it is practical to be overcalling 1S on 20 high, for instance. There has to be some sort of upper limit at which you start by doubling and then bidding your suit. Now, traditionally, we have been more aggressive on doing this than a lot of other players but we backed off on . . . hands that can’t handle certain major suit responses. For instance, if I’m a 1-5-3-4, I will be overcalling 1H more often over 1D than I would with a 3-5-1-4.
BridgeMatters: If you do double more, aren’t you worried about the opponents aggressively bouncing the bidding, leaving you pickled about unwinding the bidding later?
Eric Rodwell: I have to feel that my hand is good enough. For example, if I have a 3-5-1-4 and they open 1D in front of me, with most 16 counts I will just be overcalling 1H. With 17, I would want to start with double generally though most other experts would have a slightly higher standard for that. With a 1-5-3-4, I want to overcall 1H with 17 and probably start doubling with 18.
BridgeMatters: What is the advantage of having a lower upper range for overcalls than what experts play at the moment?
Eric Rodwell: The thing is, when it comes to using points as a guide in any situation, unless both hands are balanced, it is going to lead to some very incorrect conclusions. I have doubled instead of bidding my suit on hands with less than 16 if they are good distributional hands, especially if they have long spades, for instance.
BridgeMatters: What is the advantage of limiting the playing value of your overcall?
Eric Rodwell: The thing is, most everybody overcalls with light hands that are well below opening bid strength at the one level. So there is substantial risk in responding 1NT with 6 or 7 points. And responder could have had a penalty double of the overcall. You need to be passing the overcall with nondescript hands that have up to a poor 8. If you think you are running a significant risk of missing a game opposite those hands, you need to be bidding more aggressively by starting with a double. But a lot of hands with 16 high can’t make game opposite hands that can’t answer the overcall. It’s like the decision to open 2C in standard—how likely are you miss a game opposite a nondescript hand with less than 6 points that wouldn’t respond? That depends on your playing strength, your distribution, and all that. To a lesser extent, it is how easy the hand is to bid. Let’s say I have a 1-4-3-5 20 count—I am more inclined to open that hand 1C than a 5-4-3-1 20 count, where I more inclined to open 2C.
BridgeMatters: If you do double more, aren’t you worried about the opponents aggressively bouncing the bidding, leaving you pickled about unwinding the bidding later?
Eric Rodwell: I have to feel that my hand is good enough. For example, if I have a 3-5-1-4 and they open 1D in front of me, with most 16 counts I will just be overcalling 1H. With 17, I would want to start with double generally though most other experts would have a slightly higher standard for that. With a 1-5-3-4, I want to overcall 1H with 17 and probably start doubling with 18.
BridgeMatters: What is the advantage of having a lower upper range for overcalls than what experts play at the moment?
Eric Rodwell: The thing is, when it comes to using points as a guide in any situation, unless both hands are balanced, it is going to lead to some very incorrect conclusions. I have doubled instead of bidding my suit on hands with less than 16 if they are good distributional hands, especially if they have long spades, for instance.
BridgeMatters: What is the advantage of limiting the playing value of your overcall?
Eric Rodwell: The thing is, most everybody overcalls with light hands that are well below opening bid strength at the one level. So there is substantial risk in responding 1NT with 6 or 7 points. And responder could have had a penalty double of the overcall. You need to be passing the overcall with nondescript hands that have up to a poor 8. If you think you are running a significant risk of missing a game opposite those hands, you need to be bidding more aggressively by starting with a double. But a lot of hands with 16 high can’t make game opposite hands that can’t answer the overcall. It’s like the decision to open 2C in standard—how likely are you miss a game opposite a nondescript hand with less than 6 points that wouldn’t respond? That depends on your playing strength, your distribution, and all that. To a lesser extent, it is how easy the hand is to bid. Let’s say I have a 1-4-3-5 20 count—I am more inclined to open that hand 1C than a 5-4-3-1 20 count, where I more inclined to open 2C.
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Posted 2010-November-18, 19:31
gwnn, on 2010-November-18, 19:13, said:
Could you show me that special hand that really needs 2♠ non forcing?
I posted a part of the Rodwell interview where he advocates for some ceiling for overcalls (with some wiggle-room depending how dangerous partner's advance might prove)
With spades we have the least danger of partner's advance taking us too high, so maybe if doubler has...
AKxxx Axx x KQxx opposite
xx Kxx Kxxxx xxx
I'm arguing for nf, but I'm not sure about it and that's why I posted.
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Posted 2010-November-18, 19:31
oh wow. ok... well I would never double with that and I would never bid 1N with that. ugh! 16 and 5-3 in the majors!! eeekkkk
I don't know if Eric Rodwell would double or bid 1N with that. I guess he could start posting, then we'd find out.
I don't know if Eric Rodwell would double or bid 1N with that. I guess he could start posting, then we'd find out.
... and I can prove it with my usual, flawless logic.
George Carlin
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Posted 2010-November-18, 19:36
The problem with doubling with 5 card suits, if they're not chunky, is that even after an innocuous 2♦ bid from your right you'll be in a bad situation. So I really tend to avoid doing so, I guess I'm outmoded then?
... and I can prove it with my usual, flawless logic.
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Posted 2010-November-18, 19:57
gwnn, on 2010-November-18, 19:36, said:
The problem with doubling with 5 card suits, if they're not chunky, is that even after an innocuous 2♦ bid from your right you'll be in a bad situation. So I really tend to avoid doing so, I guess I'm outmoded then?
I don't know. Even at the time of the Rodwell interview they spoke about a difference in style. My impression was that (back then) capping the overcalls was in vogue. Perhaps that allowed them to make lighter overcalls? With spades especially?
Yeah, the 1N example I gave was too light.
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Posted 2010-November-20, 01:28
nige1, on 2010-November-18, 15:09, said:
IMO (1♦) _X (_P) 1N shows a flat hand with values and usually a stop. So it is best to treat it as a natural notrump bid with system-on: Stayman, transfers, and so on. If partner has a diamond tenace, It will often be better if the opening-bidder is on lead.
So are you suggesting that when your pd doubles 1♦, you should skip your 4 card major and bid 1NT with flat hands and stopper ? If not what stayman are you talking about ?
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Posted 2010-November-20, 03:39
gwnn, on 2010-November-18, 19:31, said:
oh wow. ok... well I would never double with that and I would never bid 1N with that. ugh! 16 and 5-3 in the majors!! eeekkkk
I don't know if Eric Rodwell would double or bid 1N with that. I guess he could start posting, then we'd find out.
I don't know if Eric Rodwell would double or bid 1N with that. I guess he could start posting, then we'd find out.
Maybe he's already told us?
He said in the interview that with most 3514 16-counts he'd overcall. I'd be surprised if he treated AKxxx Axx x KQxx any differently, because it's not very different.
He also said that the point of this style is that he wants to be able to pass the overcall with "up to a poor 8". The example Straube gave is an awful 6-count.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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Posted 2010-November-20, 05:32
The idea that 2S should not be forcing is not practical to me. The NT response is generally constructive, 7-10, 8-11, how does it make sense for the hand which makes a t/o dble to try and improve the contract, when he may even be facing 2S or possibly even 1 trump? for example x Kxx KJxxx xxxx might find a lot of players bidding 1N.
For me I like to try and keep the bidding open when partner makes an o/c with most hands that would respond to an opening bid. What I enjoy about this style is you do not find yourself in positions where you need to make a t/o dble with the wrong shape, so I have no issues making an o/c with some hands 19 or so. What I do not do is go out of my way to o/c S because I have 5 when the suit is weak. With this sort of approach it makes more sense to have 2S a weakish 5 card and offering an alternate game search.
For me I like to try and keep the bidding open when partner makes an o/c with most hands that would respond to an opening bid. What I enjoy about this style is you do not find yourself in positions where you need to make a t/o dble with the wrong shape, so I have no issues making an o/c with some hands 19 or so. What I do not do is go out of my way to o/c S because I have 5 when the suit is weak. With this sort of approach it makes more sense to have 2S a weakish 5 card and offering an alternate game search.