[EricK]

I have just had a thought!

After opps bid 1H 1NT (forcing) might it be better for a double by fourth hand to simply show ♠ (ie a hand which would have overcalled 1♥ with 1♠) rather than as a normal take out double of 1♥?

This sort of hand (strong enough to overcall 1♠ but not strong enough to overcall 2♠ may be the most likely hand to be able to compete for the part score.

What do you think?

Eric

[jtfanclub]

I think it's best for it to show both...a hand that could have overcalled 1H with 1S (but not 2), or a hand with at least opening strength.

Or, to put it another way, suppose that you have:

---

What do you want to bid, if X isn't available?

[paulhar]

jtfanclub, on Aug 23 2004, 03:56 PM, said:

I think it's best for it to show both...a hand that could have overcalled 1H with 1S (but not 2), or a hand with at least opening strength.

Or, to put it another way, suppose that you have:

---

What do you want to bid, if X isn't available?

How does your partner know what to do with a modest hand with four spades?

[jtfanclub]

paulhar, on Aug 24 2004, 10:39 AM, said:

jtfanclub, on Aug 23 2004, 03:56 PM, said:

I think it's best for it to show both...a hand that could have overcalled 1H with 1S (but not 2), or a hand with at least opening strength. 

Or, to put it another way, suppose that you have:

Dealer: ????? Vul: ???? Scoring: Unknown

♠ xx ♥ AKJx ♦ AKQx ♣ xxx

What do you want to bid, if X isn't available?

How does your partner know what to do with a modest hand with four spades?

He bids two spades, and then you bid 2NT. What's the problem? Depending upon how modest modest is, you may have a game bonus in your future.

[paulhar]

jtfanclub, on Aug 24 2004, 10:48 AM, said:

He bids two spades, and then you bid 2NT. What's the problem?

The problem is that if the 1NT bidder wasn't screwing around, you're going to play 2NT doubled down a few opposite nothing. I learned that lesson the hard way 25 years ago when I started playing in the open games and found many -300s and -500s vs part scores on my scoresheet for this type of bidding.

[jtfanclub]

paulhar, on Aug 24 2004, 11:00 AM, said:

jtfanclub, on Aug 24 2004, 10:48 AM, said:

He bids two spades, and then you bid 2NT.  What's the problem?

The problem is that if the 1NT bidder wasn't screwing around, you're going to play 2NT doubled down a few opposite nothing. I learned that lesson the hard way 25 years ago when I started playing in the open games and found many -300s and -500s vs part scores on my scoresheet for this type of bidding.

Eh. if they double me we can run to 3D. Partner could have:

---

And we'll make the SOB most of the time, so I'm simply not concerned about 300. They can't risk the X, because we may have a minor suit to run to.

If you're scared to be at 2NT with 18 hcp across almost nuttin', you're going to have a heck of a time playing SA. This is a 17, but it has the same issues.

[paulhar]

jtfanclub, on Aug 24 2004, 11:14 AM, said:

If you're scared to be at 2NT with 18 hcp across almost nuttin', you're going to have a heck of a time playing SA. This is a 17, but it has the same issues.

It's difficult for somebody to double 2NT on the auction 1C P 1H P 2NT.

It's easy for somebody to double 2NT on the auction (1H) P (1NT) X (P) 2S (P) 2NT. As long as the 1H bidder doesn't open 'on air', the 1NT bidder will wish to double on most non-minimum 1NT responses. And, if the 1NT repsonder doesn't respond 'on air', the 1H bidder will double on most non-minimum 1H openings.

Yeah, you might have a minor suit fit, but not likely. Responder doesn't have a fit for opener's hearts. You don't have a fit for partner's spades. If you have a big fit in a minor, they probably have one in the other minor. This big fit of theirs hasn't shown up in the bidding (say as in a 2C rebid by opener.) Looks like a misfit all around.

[inquiry]

EricK, on Aug 23 2004, 04:50 PM, said:

I have just had a thought!

After opps bid 1H 1NT (forcing) might it be better for a double by fourth hand to simply show ♠ (ie a hand which would have overcalled 1♥ with 1♠) rather than as a normal take out double of 1♥?

This sort of hand (strong enough to overcall 1♠ but not strong enough to overcall 2♠ may be the most likely hand to be able to compete for the part score.

What do you think?

Eric

This is nice, but you may want to consider something more exciting.

DBL = club or diamond one suiter, or a monster spade one suiter
2CLUB = general takeout
2DIAMONDS = spade/diamond two suiter
2HEARTS = spades/club two suiter
2SPADES = minor two suiter, tolerance for spades (think 3055 or 2-1-55 doubleton honor)
2NT = minor two suiter, no spade tolerance

You can mess with this anyway you like. I have been playing a much simplier version of this.. Double shows either minor, 2 of a minor shows that suit and spades, and 2S shows spades nothing special, 2H shows spades and great hand, and 2NT shows both minors. This has simplisity going for it, and it is easlier to comptete with two suits. With three suits, I genearlly wait and double back in.

Ben

[jtfanclub]

paulhar, on Aug 24 2004, 11:31 AM, said:

Responder doesn't have a fit for opener's hearts.

I don't play that the 1NT responses denies 3 hearts. Do most people?

Anyhow, what I'm hearing here is...

When opener opened light, we get a top when responder doubles.
When responder responded light, we get a top when opener doubles.
When we have a minor suit fit, we get a top when either side doubles.
And when you have 4S, we get a top even if we get set two.

We get a bottom when my partner has <5 hcp and we have no minor suit fit.

I can deal with that.