[straube]

Can anyone shed light on Mansfield's definition of a COG cue bid? He uses it to show interest in at least 2 different strains as opposed to using it as a slam try.

His definition for a 3-level or 4-level cue bid as COG is when...

"A forcing pass is available: and the cue-bid is below game in at least 2 of the partnership's possible strains; and we have bid, or implied at least 2 suits, or the bidding is already at the 4-level, or the cue bidder is unlimited."

I would think that 1S (3C) 4C would be agreeing spades and creating a force as responder had dbl and 3D, and 3H available to show interest in other suits. But I'm a little lost with all of the ands and ors.

[gwnn]

Andy Bowles has a much better definition in this thread:

http://www.bridgebas...ive-card-major/

[straube]

Here's Andy's definition...

Quote

I think a four-level cue bid should always be choice of game unless either
a) A trump suit is already agreed, or
RHO has bid, so that there's a takeout double available, or

Sadly, none of my regular partners would agree with this.

Edit: and possibly also
c) A choice-of-games interpretation doesn't make any sense (but I can't think of any of these).

He gave an example where P 3D 3H P 4D should show 4S/2H. Maybe that was an exception for a PH, but I don't think this would make sense for an UPH.

[mfa1010]

straube, on 2010-November-14, 14:35, said:

But I'm a little lost with all of the ands and ors.

Me too.

I read the first part of Mansfield's definition as if COG cuebids are on if a forcing pass is available (provided that we are on the right level for it).
I disagree with that. If a forcing pass is available that should be our choice of strain engine, not the cuebid.

In general I think cuebids showing a good raise are more valuable than COG cuebids. I think in my partnership we only use COG cuebids when partner has not bid a suit yet. But we don't have fancy definitions. Lowlevel cuebids are a different story of course.

[straube]

Yeah, I didn't understand that bit about the forcing pass either. I, too, would think that the forcing pass would serve better as a COG cue. If a forcing pass is not available and we need to force, then we need that cue bid.

I'm thinking that the COG cue is on when either both partners have bid a suit or when at least two suits are in focus because we've made takeout doubles or responsive doubles, etc.

The classic example is something like 1S (3C) 3H P 4C

It seems like it is also needed sometimes when only one suit has been in focus. Those times are when the cue bidder can't show a suit and force at the same time.

For the auction 3D (3H) P advancer can force with 3S or 4m.

But for the auction 3C (3S) P advancer can't force with 4H. So he needs 4C with something like xx AQxxx KQxx xx.

Hm. Wondering if there's a conflict with Ruben's advances.

[straube]

Fred offered to be quoted....

Quote

While my regular partner and I do use COG cue bids, it is not as if we have spent a lot of time discussing this or have any firm rules about when they apply. I don't recall ever having a bidding misunderstanding with my regular partner in this area, but it is not as these bids come up that much and we are rather lucky that we tend to think of undiscussed bids the same way as one another. That being said, it would not surprise me in the least if we were to have a bidding misunderstanding in this area in any given session that we play in the future.

I can tell you that we use a heavy "games before slams" philosophy. So, if trumps have not been agreed and if neither player has made an obvious slam try, a cue bid would have strong tendency to be interpreted as COG (as opposed to being a slam try). This "games before slams" thing is hardly a standard approach to bridge, especially among non-expert (and quite possibly among experts outside of North America). Average players tend to immediately start thinking "slam" as soon as a cue bid is made.

[straube]

COG Rules

1. COG applies when you can't force with your suit. For example...
.....1H (2C) 2S P 3C would start COG
.....1S (3C) dbl P 4C would start COG
.....3D (3S) 4D would start COG because 4H would not be forcing

2. COG then doesn't apply when you can force with your suit.
.....1H (3D) 4D is support for hearts and creates a force
.....1C (1S) 3C 4C is support for spades and creates a force

2. COG doesn't apply when you have a forcing pass available. For example after partner makes a GF 2/1...
.....1S P 2H (3C) 4C would be support of hearts

3. COG may apply even when a double is available...
.....1C X 3C 4C would be COG and would be more directional than X


Improvements?