[straube]

Playing a standard system, I pass with

void AQxx Kxxx Jxxxx

The auction continues 1H by LHO, 1S by partner, and pass back to me.

Do I pass or bid 1N?

All vul imps

[CSGibson]

I'm not passing. I'll consider 1N and 2♣. 2♣ will probably be best because I'll have to bring home one of the minors anyway for a source of tricks in NT;

Edit: To expound further on this reasoning, if partner passes, we might be in trouble, but we have a 3N call if partner raises to 3♣, and a pass if partner bids 2♦, both of which are likely to be better contracts than 1N. I will pass over partner's 2♠ bid, and hope we survive, but I think an initial pass is just too cowardly when partner can have the cards with play for slam (picture QJxxxx x Ax AQT9, for example...

[akhare]

P /2♣ come to mind.

I definitely won't bid 1N.

[MickyB]

I bid 1N. Nothing else came to mind.

[straube]

Thanks for the replies thus far. Partner and I are debating whether 1N promises tolerance for partner's spades. Does it?

I think it doesn't.

Let's say partner opened a Precision (limited 11-15) hand 1S. I'd certainly bid 1N now, wouldn't I?

And partner has come in vulnerable opposite a passed hand (so should have something approaching a Precision opener) and I'm not minimum for a Precision response.

[akhare]

straube, on 2010-November-11, 16:54, said:

Thanks for the replies thus far. Partner and I are debating whether 1N promises tolerance for partner's spades. Does it?

I think it doesn't.

Let's say partner opened a Precision (limited 11-15) hand 1S. I'd certainly bid 1N now, wouldn't I?

And partner has come in vulnerable opposite a passed hand (so should have something approaching a Precision opener) and I'm not minimum for a Precision response.

"Promises" is too strong a word. Partner can reasonably expect spade tolerance for the 1N bid -- extreme shape like this and a hand that wants to advance as well is more of an exception.

Also, I don't think that the analogy about the 1♠ opening - 1N holds up too well -- the situations are very different and opposite a PH, pard can bid 1♠ (instead of say 2♠) for a variety of tactical reasons...

[straube]

CSGibson, on 2010-November-11, 16:26, said:

I'm not passing. I'll consider 1N and 2♣. 2♣ will probably be best because I'll have to bring home one of the minors anyway for a source of tricks in NT;

Edit: To expound further on this reasoning, if partner passes, we might be in trouble, but we have a 3N call if partner raises to 3♣, and a pass if partner bids 2♦, both of which are likely to be better contracts than 1N. I will pass over partner's 2♠ bid, and hope we survive, but I think an initial pass is just too cowardly when partner can have the cards with play for slam (picture QJxxxx x Ax AQT9, for example...

I think 2C gives too much direction to the hand. 1N shows where are values are (hearts)and it preserves other options. I totally agree about pass being too conservative. It's also too unilateral. This hand can belong in either minor or NT as well as spades. I agree we can easily be on for a minor suit game or slam.

[straube]

Quote

"Promises" is too strong a word. Partner can reasonably expect spade tolerance for the 1N bid -- extreme shape like this and a hand that wants to advance as well is more of an exception.

Also, I don't think that the analogy about the 1♠ opening - 1N holds up too well -- the situations are very different and opposite a PH, pard can bid 1♠ (instead of say 2♠) for a variety of tactical reasons...

It sounds like you're saying that a hand like this is an exception that is permitted. If so, overcaller needs to be careful not to rebid 2S unless he has a good enough suit and a hand too good to have preempted 2S the first time.

[akhare]

straube, on 2010-November-11, 19:34, said:

It sounds like you're saying that a hand like this is an exception that is permitted. If so, overcaller needs to be careful not to rebid 2S unless he has a good enough suit and a hand too good to have preempted 2S the first time.

Bridge is a game of percentages. Overcaller should rebid 2♠ with 6+ ♠ if the hand warrants it without being overly concerned about advancer's void. Once again, overcaller may bid 1♠ or 2♠ for tactical reasons and one of them may be the suit quality.

Rarely, the hands will be a terrible misfit, but so what?

[andy_h]

Anything other than 1NT is just weird/masterminding. We have stoppers in LHO's suit, decent 10 count considering we're a passed hand and partner's overcall can be semi-heavy (since that's the common style these days). Bid your hand! Partner could have a second suit which certainly beats playing in 1S.

[foobar]

straube, on 2010-November-11, 19:02, said:

I think 2C gives too much direction to the hand. 1N shows where are values are (hearts)and it preserves other options. I totally agree about pass being too conservative. It's also too unilateral. This hand can belong in either minor or NT as well as spades. I agree we can easily be on for a minor suit game or slam.

Actually, I thinking too much in the context of a system that allows opening this hand .

I do agree that P is taking too much of a position and will change my preference to 2C / 1N in that order. Thinking of slam is way out there IMO, but a better partscore (hopefully) and a somewhat unlikely game do come to mind...

[Phil]

1N does not promise support for partner. Does 1M - pass - 1N promise support (lol?). Seriously, some of you are overthinking this.

[straube]

foobar said:

Bridge is a game of percentages. Overcaller should rebid 2♠ with 6+ ♠ if the hand warrants it without being overly concerned about advancer's void. Once again, overcaller may bid 1♠ or 2♠ for tactical reasons and one of them may be the suit quality.

Rarely, the hands will be a terrible misfit, but so what?

If the suit quality is the concern, one should be more reluctant to rebid 2S after partner has denied a fit than to bid 2S immediately when partner has not denied a fit.

foobar, on 2010-November-11, 21:12, said:

Actually, I thinking too much in the context of a system that allows opening this hand .

I do agree that P is taking too much of a position and will change my preference to 2C / 1N in that order. Thinking of slam is way out there IMO, but a better partscore (hopefully) and a somewhat unlikely game do come to mind...

Yay (at least for 1N). But remember the whole point of discussing what to do with --- AQxx Kxxx Jxxxx was to show that 1N did not promise tolerance for spades. From the other thread...

foobar said:

straube said:

Lastly, a direct 2s rebid over 2D put pressure on me after 3D because it communicated a hand that was too good to bid 2S and a hand that had a good suit. Granted 3S was wrong, but in a sense, partner ought to be giving me "permission" to compete to the 3-level with many other hands of Hx support. Say I had Kx Axxx xx Qxxx. I ought to bid 3S with this.

I don't see why pard's 2S gives any "permission" to bid 3S.

1) Advancer was PH and overcaller should be given leeway to bid tactically
2) Advancer's 1N already conveyed the strength of the hand (and obstensibly ♠ tolerance) and allowed pard to bid 2♠
3) It would be wrong to compete even with the alternative hand for the same reasons

I'm concerned about the word "tactically". Are you referring to suit quality or are you talking about bidding light? We are vulnerable, 1S has taken up almost no room and thus was not bid to put pressure on the opponents (like say a 2D overcall might). A lead-direct shows little profit when the opponents play hearts. Partner is a limited hand and is as likely to risk an overbid as an underbid since "partner will know that I'm stretching". It seems that the overcaller has pretty good reasons to have his bid here.

I think if one overcalls 1S on AQxxxx xxx Kxx K then that is a reasonable action which obviously has support. The trouble I have is the rebid of 2S after partner's 1N call. I would prefer a pass with this hand the second time around. If the claim is made that "this is a hand too good to preempt and it's a rebiddable suit opposite a non-fitting hand" then I disagree but have some sympathy; it's not a bad hand even if it's not a very good hand (and it does have losers in the opponent's suits). If the claim is made that "1N showed tolerance for spades and I can bid 2S without fearing that partner will compete further" then I think that's wrong.

Consider passing the hand around. Reserve that direct 2S rebid for something better and directional. It looks like a misfit, but partner may surprise by supporting with Kx of spades. If he doesn't, perhaps the opponents are in a bad spot.

[foobar]

straube, on 2010-November-11, 23:23, said:

I'm concerned about the word "tactically". Are you referring to suit quality or are you talking about bidding light? We are vulnerable, 1S has taken up almost no room and thus was not bid to put pressure on the opponents (like say a 2D overcall might). A lead-direct shows little profit when the opponents play hearts. Partner is a limited hand and is as likely to risk an overbid as an underbid since "partner will know that I'm stretching". It seems that the overcaller has pretty good reasons to have his bid here.

Tactically simply means that pard is allowed to take liberties, especially playing a system that allows such light openings.

Pard's is allowed to vary preempts and overcalls based on state of the match, opponents' tendencies or just to mix things up. Having made a bid that conveys the combined potential of the hands, advancer shouldn't read much into why partner chose to bid one way or the other...

[the hog]

I am definitely not passing. I think 1NT is superior to 2C.

[MrAce]

Pass is not an option to me. 2♣ or 1 NT

It falls as 1NT on the ground.

-1NT does not waranth 2 card ♠

-2♣ is 5+,f1 and will create at least 1 round forcing auction with Jxxxx ♣

-1NT promisses a limit hand (which i have) and ♥ stopper(s) which i have.

Yes i wish i had a bit more balanced hand or at least 1♠ for my bid, but 1NT fits most to my extreme hand vs a ♠ overcall.

EDIT: i just saw i am a passed hand. So i have more sympathy to 2♣ bid, but i would still bid 1 NT. Disregard my second explenation above.

[P_Marlowe]

Pass is out.

So this leaves 1NT.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[dake50]

Wow! What is your top for 1S overcall?
Responses other than pass mystify me.
I have a misfit 10: unclaimed clubs J; HQ under 1H opening. A+K working.
Y'all must allow 1S on 17-18 -- just to have hope of some making higher contract.
Even 19-20 because this is so-o-o likely a misfit.
I play 1S is near a minimum opener if a fit is found -- more starts T/O Dbl.
Plus I allow much leeway when 1S overcall jumps over 1H (not here).
Some leeway for S>H as in this auction as 2S>2H, 3S>3H, 4S>4H often cheap.

[nige1]

straube, on 2010-November-11, 15:19, said:

All vul imps, playing a standard system, I pass with void AQxx Kxxx Jxxxx
The auction continues 1H by LHO, 1S by partner, and pass back to me.
Do I pass or bid 1N?

IMO 1N = 10, _P = 7, 2♣ = 4.
IMO, 2♣ should show a better suit and indicate a better lead.

[wank]

1nt wtp?