[gnasher]

han, on 2010-November-11, 07:40, said:

First of all, I really hate the idea of using the first step (or any step) as an artificial negative after a double of 1D.

I actually suggested an artifical negative reply "to the cue--bid". Readers who are rather more alert than I am will notice that there hasn't actually been a cue-bid, and will have inferred that I didn't, in fact, know what the auction was. I thought partner had doubled and then cue-bid, which, as you say later in your post, is rather different.

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I also really dislike the initial 2C response, I am not going to rebid a 3-card suit at the two level (in the suit where partner is least likely to have a 4-card suit!), just out of fear of getting partner excited.

Who said anything about rebidding 3♣? If partner cue-bids or doubles 2♦, you can bid 2♥ or 2♠, and he will expect that you have exactly three. So you will have suggested one more card in a minor, rather than one or two more cards in a major.

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To continue, I don't like to play that after the double of 2D, any bid besides 2H shows extras. In fact, it seems to me that this is really bad. The situation is very different from 1D - Dbl - p - 1H - p - 2D. In the original auction partner has really denied 3 hearts, which is not the case in the cuebid auction. Moreover, this second double is usually more about competing and finding the right strain than the cuebid auction, where partner is showing a big hand and wants to know whether we can say something positive.

Yes, I agree.

[rhm]

han, on 2010-November-11, 07:40, said:

I also really dislike the initial 2C response, I am not going to rebid a 3-card suit at the two level (in the suit where partner is least likely to have a 4-card suit!), just out of fear of getting partner excited.

I am a 2♣ bidder.

When you have a very weak hand and LHO passes over the takeout DBL, it is at least likely that partner will be strong and bid again. If partner is very strong his distribution is undefined.
What matters is not whether your initial bid is at the two level, but at which level the bidding will come to a stop, maybe doubled. Foresight by the hand, which is broke, pays.
Bidding 3 card major suits on weak hands is obviously dangerous. A good partner will not play you for being broke and having no suit, because the situation where you do not have a 4 card suit to bid is quite rare and if he does you will miss many good games when the situation is not quite that desperate.
Bidding a minor is less likely to excite a takeout doubler.
Bidding a major at the one level may be helpful if partner will rebid 1NT.
But if partner will cue-bid or double again or if he has support for the bid major you are likely to get too high. In both cases you will end up higher than the one level for sure.
I certainly prefer a 1♠ response to 1♥ because you can rebid 2♥ in response to the cue-bid, which keeps the bidding low.
Bidding 1♥ followed by 2 ♠ is a good recipe for a disaster, and rebidding a major on three cards too.
How the strong takeout doubler is ever supposed to find out anything about your major suit lengths escapes me.
To say partner has to reckon with the worst does not help. Game might be excellent opposite 5-4, but the two level may be too high opposite 3-3.

If you start with 2♣ in response to the takeout double and partner cue-bids you can now bid 2 ♥ and the takeout doubler will know that you are very unlikely to hold a 4 card major and since you did not rebid your ♣ you neither have a 5 card ♣ suit since you preferred to bid a 3 card major.

Furthermore if you prefer to bid a 3 card minor in preference to a 3 card major, the takeout doubler will be on much firmer grounds when you do bid a major in response to his takeout double. There is a need in many competitive situations for takeout doubler to raise without much extra to confirm that he does have 4 card support for your bid major.

Rainer Herrmann

[straube]

I think bidding 2C initially with 3343 is ridiculous. It prevents opener from rebidding 1S or 1N, contracts for 8 tricks instead of 7 and shows a preference for clubs when no preference exists. 2C should promise 4 clubs.

A 2C advance deserves to catch doubler with 4-4-3-2.

[rhm]

straube, on 2010-November-11, 09:55, said:

I think bidding 2C initially with 3343 is ridiculous. It prevents opener from rebidding 1S or 1N, contracts for 8 tricks instead of 7 and shows a preference for clubs when no preference exists. 2C should promise 4 clubs.

A 2C advance deserves to catch doubler with 4-4-3-2.

Strange, why you insist that a minor suit response must show 4 cards while a major suit response can be bid on 3.
Big deal if doubler wanted to rebid ♠. Over 2♣ he will now bid 2♠, showing around 19 points, which I will pass.
Now assume you had bid 1♠ in response to the takeout double. I wish you good luck stopping him from considering slam.
Now let doubler be 4=4=3=2. When doubler has a doubleton in an unbid suit he must be strong. I wish you also good luck when doubler jumps to at least 3♥ or 3♠ over your major suit response, while he will just bid 2♦ over 2♣ and pass the 2♥ rebid.

Rainer Herrmann

[OleBerg]

lesh, on 2010-November-11, 03:08, said:

1)About 1di - DBL - P I think with Kxxx xxxx xx xxx it is better to bid 1he than 1sp and then rebidding 2he, because you will show 5th spade and 4th heart. With 1he bidding you dont deny 4th spade whereas with 1sp bid you will have 4th heart only when you are 5th sp and 4he.

Wrong forum.

[gnasher]

straube, on 2010-November-11, 09:55, said:

A 2C advance deserves to catch doubler with 4-4-3-2.

If which case, if partner has the 19-count that the bidding suggests, we will reach 2NT with the strong hand concealed instead of 3♥ with the strong hand in dummy. Which would you prefer?

[straube]

gnasher, on 2010-November-11, 10:35, said:

If which case, if partner has the 19-count that the bidding suggests, we will reach 2NT with the strong hand concealed instead of 3♥ with the strong hand in dummy. Which would you prefer?

I would prefer reaching 2N on that auction. Win for you.

I think you're missing what happens on other sequences. Opener doesn't have to rebid 2D. Responding 1H allows 1N by dblr. Responding 2C with 3 clubs might also persuade dblr to raise with four clubs so that we're playing a 4-3 club fit when a 4-3 heart fit might have been available.

Doubler could also have something like AKxx KQxx xxx Ax in which case advancing 2C is disastrous.

[mtvesuvius]

So are the 2♣ bidders saying they would NOT double with Axxx KJTx Axx Qx?

[rhm]

mtvesuvius, on 2010-November-11, 11:27, said:

So are the 2♣ bidders saying they would NOT double with Axxx KJTx Axx Qx?

What will you do when partner bids 2♣ with 4 cards?
I am not saying that responding 2♣ on 3 cards will always work out best, only that it has a better chance to survive. Responding in a major shows lack of foresight.

Rainer Herrmann

[Fluffy]

Appart from pass being an option, is there any difference between this sequence and where LHO passes and partner cues 2♦?

[mtvesuvius]

rhm, on 2010-November-11, 11:37, said:

What will you do when partner bids 2♣ with 4 cards?
I am not saying that responding 2♣ on 3 cards will always work out best, only that it has a better chance to survive. Responding in a major shows lack of foresight.

Rainer Herrmann

Sometimes partner does that, but honestly, I think that almost everyone would double with that hand. I understand that you are not suggesting that it will always work out, however I think that responding 1♥ (or 1♠) here is definitely better than 2♣. It will usually win when partner does not have a strong hand, and we can still survive sometimes when partner does have a strong hand (if we bid 2♣ and partner raises, things really are not good). Sometimes partner will raise our major and things will go bad, but it won't be the first time I've played in a 4-3 fit.

Perhaps it's better to respond 1♠ on 3-3 as well to avoid later problems, but IMO, responding 2♣ is taking it to the extreme.

[Rodney26]

I think the best thing to do is respond 1♠ initially. Textbooks aside, that's the only lead I can stand if the other side buys it, which seems likely. I know there is no upside to my playing a contract if partner persists but I'd like to beat the others on defense if they start by bidding hearts with my hand. If this auction pops up, I do the best I can with two ♥ on the second round. Everyone else is likely to be in the same torture chamber.

Whatever plan you choose, I don't think rebidding a 3 card suit will ever be right.

[Fluffy]

mfa1010, on 2010-November-11, 06:09, said:

I think any bid but 2♥ shows something. Perhaps 1♠ was better when we do have the ♠K. 2♥ is an option, as is 2NT, but I like pass.

I would expect 2NT now to show some values and a 4card heart suit.

Maybe you are lucky, but the no suit no values hand happens to me much more often than the mid values with a stopper one.

[straube]

Fluffy, on 2010-November-11, 11:44, said:

Appart from pass being an option, is there any difference between this sequence and where LHO passes and partner cues 2♦?

Not sure. I don't see an immediate difference in what advancer bids, but the cue bid does promise a rebid.

[nigel_k]

Good question and I doubt there is any standard treatment.

I think you were right to respond 1♥ rather than 1♠ or 2♣. Over partner's second double you don't really have any choice other than 2♠. This is more likely to be 3-4 or 3-3 than 4-5. In fact with 4-5 you should probably rebid hearts to avoid this problem though I wouldn't have thought of this before I read your post.

[straube]

nigel_k, on 2010-November-11, 13:29, said:

Good question and I doubt there is any standard treatment.

I think you were right to respond 1♥ rather than 1♠ or 2♣. Over partner's second double you don't really have any choice other than 2♠. This is more likely to be 3-4 or 3-3 than 4-5. In fact with 4-5 you should probably rebid hearts to avoid this problem though I wouldn't have thought of this before I read your post.

Thanks. I think with 3-4 I'll rebid the hearts so that partner can take the tap.

Quite similar problem after 1C dbl P 1D 2C X P ?

I think with 3-3-3-4 I'll bid hearts next.