[straube]

After 1D dbl P ?

I've learned that with Kxxx xxxx xx xxx my response is 1S so that I may rebid 2H later if need be.

With...

Kxx xxx xxxx xxx

my response is 1H.

Now after...

1D dbl P 1H
2D dbl P ?

partner is showing extra values and no fit for hearts. Some believe that X suggests a balanced hand, but what is partner to do with 4-3-1-5 and 18 or so?

Would a 2S bid here show 4-5 in the majors or 3-3 in the majors? I would like it to show 3-3 in the majors so that I don't have to choose between passing a likely make or rebidding a 3-cd suit that partner has likely only 3 cd support for.

What's the standard treatment (if there is one)?

[mgoetze]

Well, partner doesn't sound like he has 5 spades, and I don't think we're well-placed to play a 4-3 fit. I guess I will bid 2NT.

[straube]

mgoetze, on 2010-November-10, 18:03, said:

Well, partner doesn't sound like he has 5 spades, and I don't think we're well-placed to play a 4-3 fit. I guess I will bid 2NT.

That just can't be right.

[Cascade]

mgoetze, on 2010-November-10, 18:03, said:

Well, partner doesn't sound like he has 5 spades, and I don't think we're well-placed to play a 4-3 fit. I guess I will bid 2NT.

A contract that we are well placed to play.

[straube]

Cascade, on 2010-November-10, 19:13, said:

A contract that we are well placed to play.

But won't the opponents likely get the first 6 diamond tricks and possibly other tricks? Granted that in suit play doubler's hand will be tapped, but there are dummy reversal chances and we might find a 5-3 club fit that survives the tap.

[kayin801]

straube, on 2010-November-10, 20:06, said:

But won't the opponents likely get the first 6 diamond tricks and possibly other tricks? Granted that in suit play doubler's hand will be tapped, but there are dummy reversal chances and we might find a 5-3 club fit that survives the tap.

There is an outside chance that was sarcasm.

[mtvesuvius]

In all seriousness, I hate this problem. I hate it so much that I'd drop a card on the floor and ask for a redeal.

However, I think 2♠ should not show 3-3, and therefore you are endplayed into 2♥... Not the greatest, but still not the worst thing that could happen, right? Partner could raise, that would be worse.

[rogerclee]

Depending on the vulnerability you don't actually need very good IMP odds at all to just defend. -180 is not so bad when bidding will probably result in -200 or worse.

[straube]

mtvesuvius, on 2010-November-10, 21:58, said:

In all seriousness, I hate this problem. I hate it so much that I'd drop a card on the floor and ask for a redeal.

However, I think 2♠ should not show 3-3, and therefore you are endplayed into 2♥... Not the greatest, but still not the worst thing that could happen, right? Partner could raise, that would be worse.

But why rebid a suit that is likely a 3-3 fit? Makes no sense to me. Partner says he has extras and probably has only three-cd support. Why not try for a strain that might be a winner? And simultaneously let in partner on your (probable) exact shape of 3-3-4-3 while also preserving your 2H rebid to guarantee a 4-cd holding.

[Zelandakh]

Going back to Doubler's rebid here, 2NT would be 19-21 balanced, right? I wonder if it would not be better to make this hand type call double and then you can use a 2NT bid to represent the other hand you mentioned, 5 clubs and no heart fit. Would that not solve your problem?

[lesh]

1)About 1di - DBL - P I think with Kxxx xxxx xx xxx it is better to bid 1he than 1sp and then rebidding 2he, because you will show 5th spade and 4th heart. With 1he bidding you dont deny 4th spade whereas with 1sp bid you will have 4th heart only when you are 5th sp and 4he.

2) About 1di - DBL - 1he - P
2di - DBL - It is difficult to show 3-3 so I think 2sp would be the less harmful one although you have 3 cards, because the problem is when partner pass out your 2he bid and you in 3-2 fit. So considering the worst that can happen is 4sp 4-3 fit and 2he 3-2(3) fit. You decide which one is better.

[gnasher]

The best way to deal with this problem is to agree upon an artificial negative reply to the cue--bid. That could be step 1, or the lowest unbid suit. Then all other bids show shape and a bit of high-card strength.

[Fluffy]

I'd rebid 2NT to show a trash hand not even worth 1NT, maybe I am a bit too high now, but other bids will likelly get me even higher

[mfa1010]

I think any bid but 2♥ shows something. Perhaps 1♠ was better when we do have the ♠K. 2♥ is an option, as is 2NT, but I like pass.

Fluffy, on 2010-November-11, 05:41, said:

I'd rebid 2NT to show a trash hand not even worth 1NT, ...

I would expect 2NT now to show some values and a 4card heart suit.

[gnasher]

If not playing any special methods, I'd respond 2♣ to the takeout double. That removes any risk that partner will think we have a 4-4 major-suit fit.

[han]

I dislike most of the solutions brought forth.

First of all, I really hate the idea of using the first step (or any step) as an artificial negative after a double of 1D.

The 2NT rebid is obviously absurd.

I also really dislike the initial 2C response, I am not going to rebid a 3-card suit at the two level (in the suit where partner is least likely to have a 4-card suit!), just out of fear of getting partner excited.

To continue, I don't like to play that after the double of 2D, any bid besides 2H shows extras. In fact, it seems to me that this is really bad. The situation is very different from 1D - Dbl - p - 1H - p - 2D. In the original auction partner has really denied 3 hearts, which is not the case in the cuebid auction. Moreover, this second double is usually more about competing and finding the right strain than the cuebid auction, where partner is showing a big hand and wants to know whether we can say something positive.

The 1S bid seems sensible though, I see no reason why we shouldn't bid it with 3-3 as well as well as with 4-4. Here our only honor is in spades which makes it even more attractive.

Had I bid 1H then I would bid 2S now. Partner has already shown a good hand and the auction is reasonably likely to end here. There is no reason to drop a card on the floor yet, we might well be able to scramble 7 or 8 tricks.

[mfa1010]

Yep, you are absolutely right, han. But I still think that passing the second double is a decent shot, though.

[han]

Passing the second double also occured to me, yes.

[straube]

Zelandakh, on 2010-November-11, 01:30, said:

Going back to Doubler's rebid here, 2NT would be 19-21 balanced, right? I wonder if it would not be better to make this hand type call double and then you can use a 2NT bid to represent the other hand you mentioned, 5 clubs and no heart fit. Would that not solve your problem?

I think partner with 4-3-1-5 bigger should not commit to 2N. 2H may still be the garden spot. Better to dbl again and communicate a big hand with probably three hearts.

[straube]

han, on 2010-November-11, 07:40, said:

I dislike most of the solutions brought forth.

First of all, I really hate the idea of using the first step (or any step) as an artificial negative after a double of 1D.

The 2NT rebid is obviously absurd.

I also really dislike the initial 2C response, I am not going to rebid a 3-card suit at the two level (in the suit where partner is least likely to have a 4-card suit!), just out of fear of getting partner excited.

To continue, I don't like to play that after the double of 2D, any bid besides 2H shows extras. In fact, it seems to me that this is really bad. The situation is very different from 1D - Dbl - p - 1H - p - 2D. In the original auction partner has really denied 3 hearts, which is not the case in the cuebid auction. Moreover, this second double is usually more about competing and finding the right strain than the cuebid auction, where partner is showing a big hand and wants to know whether we can say something positive.

The 1S bid seems sensible though, I see no reason why we shouldn't bid it with 3-3 as well as well as with 4-4. Here our only honor is in spades which makes it even more attractive.

Had I bid 1H then I would bid 2S now. Partner has already shown a good hand and the auction is reasonably likely to end here. There is no reason to drop a card on the floor yet, we might well be able to scramble 7 or 8 tricks.

I've always read that bidding spades and then hearts promises 4/4. I've always read that with 3343 the correct first response is 1H, perhaps in part to allow doubler to rebid 1S. Perhaps to guarantee that a 1S advance shows 4.

I've never seen what to do after a 1H response when partner doubles back in (or cues) but a 2S bid seems right. With a 4S/5 h hand one can always comfortably rebid hearts without denying spades.