[655321]

I would give some blame to both players, but more to North. I don't think the bidding was terrible though, just that both could have done better.

South's 5♦ bid may well have been a bit lazy, but opposite many more typical FSJ slam needs a lot, for example x AJ9xx KTxx xxx. It is understandable that South decided not to look for slam, but probably it wouldn't cost to make a try.

North's hand is not typical, and it seems wrong for North to think he has shown his hand, and need do no more. Even though 2♥ is not ideal, it does at least show support. I like a raise of 5♦ to 6♦. This could work badly in one of two ways, either we are off 2 keycards, or we are off one keycard and a heart loser. I think it is extremely unlikely we are off two keycards (we have 2 and partner did bid game), but there will be hands where we are off an Ace and an unavoidable heart loser. It just seems to me that much more often we will make 12 tricks - either partner has 3 Aces for jump to game, or he has the ♥K, or a singleton heart.

[rogerclee]

Actually I did have a logic hole since partner should bid 5H also with something like void Axxxx Kxxxxx xx, but that wasn't really relevant to my point that 5H would tell you that partner is very likely 5-6 in the red suits with the ace of hearts and the ace or king of diamonds.

Mike I guess I don't know what to say when I basically proved you were wrong and you didn't take the time to even think about what I wrote. Anyway it's not really my problem.

[MrAce]

I think it would be handy, if NS agreed on what 3♥ would be, as PHIL and ADAM stated.

Assuming they didnt have this available, i have sympathy for North, for thinking to start with 2♥ and later make another move...However south has NO excuse whatsoever, for his bid. I can sit and write a list why 5♦ is a non-expert bid, but i won't...

Instead i will say one thing that expert players will easily agree, that when u are in a competitive auction, and you have a strong hand ( or your side has teh strength), u have to make a bid telling partner that we are in a FORCING PASS AUCTION b4 you bid the game, in case opponents bid over you !! Or your partner will not know, who is saving and who is making. He will not know if your dbl to 5♠ or 6♣ is a lightner dbl or power dbl. He will be vulnerable to make mistake in defense...etc etc.

This alone covers most part of this debate. This also covers my answer to the SCARY idea of lifting that 5♦ to 6♦, by the player who described his hand more or less. North did NOT make ANY action that shows this deal is belong to NS yet, letalone 5♦ being some sort of bid that allows pd to bid 6 (unless he is bored of this partnership) I dont even know (as North) who is saving and who has the strength !

[655321]

MrAce, on 2010-November-09, 04:16, said:

However south has NO excuse whatsoever, for his bid. I can sit and write a list why 5♦ is a non-expert bid, but i won't...

Instead i will say one thing that expert players will easily agree, that when u are in a competitive auction, and you have a strong hand ( or your side has teh strength), u have to make a bid telling partner that we are in a FORCING PASS AUCTION b4 you bid the game, in case opponents bid over you !! Or your partner will not know, who is saving and who is making. He will not know if your dbl to 5♠ or 6♣ is a lightner dbl or power dbl. He will be vulnerable to make mistake in defense...etc etc.

This alone covers most part of this debate.

From South's point of view, his partner has described his hand - he does not know that North holds an exceptional hand. Rightly or wrongly, he believes that he has enough information to place the contract, that game is a good bet, but slam is not. Therefore he bid a game. This idea that South is obliged to bid more slowly is nonsense. If the vulnerable opponents want to bid over 5♦, good luck to them! South has a singleton in his partner's suit, he has AJx and AQxx in the other suits, the notion that he won't be able to double a five or six level contract without confusing partner is bizarre in the extreme.

You're one of the notorious JEC kibitzers I see, which after reading your post comes as no surprise. I prescribe paying more attention to the play in the JEC matches, and less attention to the drivel from the kibitzers.

[MrAce]

655321, on 2010-November-09, 05:00, said:

You're one of the notorious JEC kibitzers I see, which after reading your post comes as no surprise. I prescribe paying more attention to the play in the JEC matches, and less attention to the drivel from the kibitzers.

Thank you for compliment

655321, on 2010-November-09, 05:00, said:

If the vulnerable opponents want to bid over 5♦, good luck to them! South has a singleton in his partner's suit, he has AJx and AQxx in the other suits, the notion that he won't be able to double a five or six level contract without confusing partner is bizarre in the extreme.

You have a point though, i have to admit, since i failed to see WEST coming from pass. This makes 5♦ bid to be less likely a half save/make bid b4 opponents find ♠ suit. (for some reason i thought 1♦ was opened in 3rd seat)

[hotShot]

Do you bid 5♦, 3NT or something else?

mike777 found in the Bridge Encyclopedia P. 158. that "An ideal hand for the auction given above would look like this: 53...AQJ87...KT72...62"
since South has the Q♥,♠6 and the ♦6 let us reduce this to 73...AJ873...KT76...62

---

awm suggested this as a typical FJ

---

If you don't bid 5♦ in both cases, how would you change the South hand, to make you bid 5♦ both times?

[MrAce]

hotShot, on 2010-November-09, 06:20, said:

Do you bid 5♦, 3NT or something else?

mike777 found in the Bridge Encyclopedia P. 158. that "An ideal hand for the auction given above would look like this: 53...AQJ87...KT72...62"
since South has the Q♥,♠6 and the ♦6 let us reduce this to 73...AJ873...KT76...62

---

awm suggested this as a typical FJ

---

If you don't bid 5♦ in both cases, how would you change the South hand, to make you bid 5♦ both times?

AQxx Kx QJxxxx x for first one , AQxx Qx QJxxxx Q for second one for example You can change the spade queen to a K and make it perfect 5 diamond hand, so u wont even need finesse or heart establish.

[mfa1010]

MrAce, on 2010-November-09, 07:21, said:

AQxx Kx QJxxxx x for first one , AQxx Qx QJxxxx Q for second one for example You can change the spade queen to a K and make it perfect 5 diamond hand, so u wont even need finesse or heart establish.

These examples are rather strained as they are so carefully picked that the nice 1-5-6-1 gets nothing out of its extra distribution. Single club vs single club. 12 card fit missing the ace. Spade Q.

About the bidding I agree fully with the numeric.

South's bidding plan of blasting 5♦ is ok in principle but just a little too pessimistic with his actual values.

North is on thin ice. 2♥ does not do justification to his hand at all, so he must try to catch up later. (I don't like 2♥ for that reason.) North should therefore clearly bid over 5♦ and he has to take most of the charge for this accident.

[mtvesuvius]

I don't think I would ever find a raise of 5♦ to 6♦ at the table, however on paper it really doesn't look too bad. Having understated your hand earlier in the auction, I'm not sure that you really should try to make up lost ground so drastically. I am having a hard time constructing hands where South could bid 5♦ where slam doesn't have any play. Perhaps KQxx Jx Axxxx AQ? Even still, they have to lead a spade. Timo's hands are completely extreme, and quite unlikely.

Having said this, 5♦ does seem like a signoff... Especially with a 4♣ cuebid available. Raising to 6♦ may have an effect on partnership trust, and in the long run may not be best. I think the problem lies in the 2♥ call with the North hand, and (of course) South's jump to 5♦ with this hand, which is worth at the very least, a small poke at slam.

Perhaps starting with 1♥, and planning on bidding 5♦ if 4♠ comes back to you may be best. There really isn't a good solution to this hand unless playing 3♥ as a fit jump as well, which IMO, is the proper treatment for 3♥ by a passed hand.

[MrAce]

Thats one way to look at it, but partner MUST have a reason for not bidding 3 NT or DBL or 4♣ or 3♠ but 5♦. The 2♥ bid was assumed to be the most ideal bid. However in real life there are also a lot of hands he bids 2♥...

-3NT ?

-DBL ?

-4♣ ?

-3♠ ?

The question was asked "if you do NOT bid 5♦ with this hand..." Answer to my examples being extreme lies there. If you believe 5♦ denies any of those bids, then you will see its not as extreme as it looks. The question was asked to justify 5♦ bid and lifting 5♦ to 6♦ at the first place. With a little options left for answer. (And i have to admit a very good question by HOTSHOT ) To me when partner fails to bid something, he doesnt have it. And i do not even think of lifting it to 6. You guys treating this 5♦ as a picture bid, which i disagree.

Opposite xx AKxxx Kxxx xx 3 nt also as good as 5♦, xx AJxxx Kxxx xx, again 3 NT is still as good as 5♦ How about double ? You do the math, i think 500 on an average day is as good as 600. Also do the math for dbl for NON IDEAL hands that pd may have bid 2♥ with.

Guess what, had South chosen one of these pathes, North would then have an easy 6♦ bid over cue followed by 5♦ bid.

I asked this hand to 7 very top world class player friends. Some of them passed 5 ♦ some of them bid 6. All those who bid 6 admitted that they are gambling. All of them, however, agreed when saw South hand, that 5♦ was an awful bid and South could have made it much easier and more CLEAR for them to bid 6, had he chosen to bid differently!

x Axxxx Kxxxx xx should he still bid 6♦ with this less extreme hand ?

Back to the examples for 5♦ bidding ; Axxx Qx AQJxx xx, Qxxx Kx AQxxx Kx and a lot more hands that doesnt even make 5♦ but partner taking a shot at it anyway.

Of course i am aware we can make 6 when i pass 5♦, i will pass anyway for the sake of pdship trust. I do not want my partner to be shy at taking shots when he feels like for bidding games in imps, i do not want him to be timid with fear of me lifting him to 6 just because i have extras. I'd rather prefer missing that slam and discuss the bidding later with my partner than being in 6 with 2 aces out.

So the disagreement here, is between those who bids 5♦ with a strong hand like this as well as with a hand that takes a shot at game and willing to get lucky or recieve a misdefend or lead and those who bids the strong hands different than just blasting hands. Again to me 5♦ = I am consuming space, i am taking a shot at 5♦ and i do not want opponents to involve more than they already did. I have no slam interest whatsoever.

Lets at least agree, for those of you who believe North should bid 6♦, it is NOT standart and an AUTO bid. It could be, had South bid it differently though. U can not expect partner, think about combinations in your hand and try to find out of hands that doesnt or does make slam vs what he has, just because u were TOO LAZY to make an effort. If he bids 6 bravo to him, if he doesnt, ticket to accident is still on South.

[mfa1010]

MrAce, on 2010-November-09, 20:21, said:

Of course i am aware we can make 6 when i pass 5♦, i will pass anyway for the sake of pdship trust. I do not want my partner to be shy at taking shots when he feels like for bidding games in imps, i do not want him to be timid with fear of me lifting him to 6 just because i have extras. I'd rather prefer missing that slam and discuss the bidding later with my partner than being in 6 with 2 aces out.

2♥ shows 5-4, and ideally we want chunky suits for a fit bid, that is secondary stuff. When we suddenly show up with 6-5 and 2 key cards, we can't expect partner to foresee that. I think it's a quite bad bidding plan to bid 2♥ and then try to catch up. 2♥ might even be final conract. But catch up we must when we get a second chance. It's not partnership trust in my world to misdescribe and then lean back.

Quote

Lets at least agree, for those of you who believe North should bid 6♦, it is NOT standart and an AUTO bid. It could be, had South bid it differently though. U can not expect partner, think about combinations in your hand and try to find out of hands that doesnt or does make slam vs what he has, just because u were TOO LAZY to make an effort. If he bids 6 bravo to him, if he doesnt, ticket to accident is still on South.

No thanks, I don't agree with that.

Quote

I asked this hand to 7 very top world class player friends...

Good idea. It's a nice way to learn.

[wank]

name dropping won't get you very far on here i'm afraid, especially when you don't mention the names (pseudo-name-dropping?).

north-south are both professionals though not a regular partnership.

north has won a world championship. south has a european championship medal. it didn't stop them playing 2 levels lower than ideal did it? having a good bridge CV doesn't preclude you from perpetrating absurdities.

[Poky]

North 100%.

Bidding 2♥ is very bad bidding.
He has 2 extra trumps.
He has 2 singletons.
He doesn't have a decent heart suit and this is the only thing that he has shown.

Even a jump to 3NT as "undiscussed" is much much better than 2♥.

♠xxx♥KQJxx♦Kxxx♣x is a decent 2♥ bid.

I can understand that someone errs by bidding 2♥. But defending this bid further, after the board, is pure catastrophe.

[mtvesuvius]

wank, on 2010-November-10, 08:01, said:

name dropping won't get you very far on here i'm afraid, especially when you don't mention the names (pseudo-name-dropping?).

north-south are both professionals though not a regular partnership.

north has won a world championship. south has a european championship medal. it didn't stop them playing 2 levels lower than ideal did it? having a good bridge CV doesn't preclude you from perpetrating absurdities.

Well said. Even the best partnerships (even ones that have played together for 30 years and have a ridiculous number of national/international titles) have bidding disasters sometimes. It's part of what keeps the game interesting.

Anyway, Timo, 6♦ is not an automatic bid, but after some considering I think it is the right bid, given the earlier auction.

[MrAce]

wank, on 2010-November-10, 08:01, said:

name dropping won't get you very far on here i'm afraid, especially when you don't mention the names (pseudo-name-dropping?).

TEZ (tezcan sen, 2006 world imp pairs champ, 08 europe mix champ) bids 6D, Ritong (Henri) passes and believes partner should not bid 5 diamonds , Drewsky (Drew Casen) passes pd have an easy 3 spade bid, Iceking bids 6 pd shd bids 3 spade/4clubs, Sergey Kustarov bids 6 and says pd should bid 4 clubs or 3 spade, Steve Robinson "pass pd is guessing" he should bid 3 spades. Bigtrain (Walter Johnson) i hate guessing and i will apply meckwell rule +680 better than -100, and when see parter's hand he says % 100 south's fault with 2 black aces and 5th trump not to make any move.

"(pseudo-name-dropping?)." I don't know why people in this forum are SO FRIENDLY You may or may not like their replies, But u can definetely contact and check with them if it is a pseudo-name-dropping or not.

If i tried to give strength to my argument by dropping names, i would have given their name, wouldn't i ? But you totally missed the point. It was an honest poll that i made, to see what people would bid in a reasonable time, actually more time than they actually use at the table. They do not have the luxury to open wikipedia, and THEN find the MOST IDEAL hand for 2♥ bid, and THEN start to eliminate the hands that pd can or can not have for his 5 diamond bid, and THEN try to figure if there is any hand that makes 5 diamond but not 6 ! And THEN calculate the possibilities of hands that makes slam vs those that doesnt make ! And THEN make a possiblr 2 ace out slam bid !!

Errr...ok How about a simple 3♠ or 4♣ by south ? Have a nice day ya'll