[olien]

on 1453 or 1444, they can show shortness after bidding 1N-2♣ and opener's reply. With (42)(52), they usually respond puppet stayman unless quantitative+. They show 1426 the same as 1444 or 1435 by showing (41)xx (disclosing the singleton). 3361 can be bid via 1N-2♠, or can prefer to bid puppet stayman (but can't show shortness later). 2263 bids 1N-3N unless slam interest, and then goes via 1N-2♠.

[straube]

The ability to show shortness is obviously very important. Maybe fit-finding can (when necessary) occur after 3N has been passed...in which case their structure would be better than mine. Interesting tradeoffs.

btw do they use something like 1N-3D, 3H to show that opener would like his hand opposite heart shortness?

and do they use Smolen or do they transfer to their longer major first?

[olien]

They use smolen, and they play transfers after transfers:

1N-2♣// f-2♠ = INV with 5♠ (may have INV with 5♠-4♥)
1N-2♦// 2♥-2♠ = INV with 5♥ (could be INV with 5/5 majors or 4♠-5♥)
......with 5♥-4♠, bid 3♥ over 2NT, with 5♥-5♠ INV, bid 3♠ over 2NT

not sure after 1N-3♦, my partner and I just play 3♥ relays, then 3♠=♠ short, 3N=♥ short NF, 4♣=♥ short, SI

If 3♠ is available below 3N after responder shows shortness, it tends to be a punt for fit, and 4m is natural
If its not available, then it gets nasty, but basically 4♣ is the grope

[straube]

clever how they handle gi 5/5 majors but they have to rebid 3D presumably to show a sixth heart and now i guess they can'tget out in clubs.

i think klinger had the right idea in that 1N-2D, 2H-2N shows an unspecified four cd minor. Using that rebid to show just clubs seems wasteful.

[olien]

They can show their exact hand type if opener chooses to relay by bidding responder's minor

[straube]

olien, on 2010-December-01, 16:11, said:

They can show their exact hand type if opener chooses to relay by bidding responder's minor

they can but they will get very high depending on how precise. say opener relays with 3D. that leaves only three steps before 3N...and they do not even know at this point whether reponder has five diamonds.

[rbforster]

Am I correct that 2C promises at 4 card major? It looks like you don't have followups for balanced invites with no 4cM, so I'm assuming those don't bid 2C. A couple of comments -

After 1N-2C-2D,

2S what about this as 4S inv and NF, instead of 4+S forcing (with similar responses including P = fit + min)
2N could this show 5H invite? Showing 4H when there's no fit doesn't seem to help. This might need a natural 1N-2N or a size ask 1N-2S so you can invite without majors some other way
3m why are you showing 4H/5m when opener denied hearts? These could be just 5+m GF and let opener bid 3S to checkback

After 1N-2C-2H, you're losing your 5-3 heart fits and playing 2N or 3N.

More generally, I'd be worried that by resolving your full shape around 3S/3N with relays, you won't have much space to get min/max info below 3N. This seems more important than resolving minor fragments for example.

[olien]

Hey Rob

So a hand with 5♥ INV bids 1N-2♦// 2♥-2♠. So, it shows 4♥, but that's because an INV hand with 4♠ bids differently and so does the INV hand with 5♥.
Yes, the 2♣ response promises a major unless relaying, so it does make some sense to play 1N-2♣// 2♦-2♠ as 4♠ INV+. I was just making it F1 (either INV with 4♠ or GF unbal with 4♠. Was trying to get something similar to Heeman so that opener knows both suits and can better decide how their honours fit opposite responder's hand and make appropriate actions. So 2♠ sort of acts like a transfer to 2N/3♣, then over 2N: 3m=4♠ 5+m GF and possibly even (41)44 types.

So after 1N-2♣// 2♦-2♠:
2NT = minimum no 4♠
.....3m=4♠ 5+m GF
.....3♥=1444
.....3♠=4144
.....3NT=IDK (because 4♠ min GF would bid 1N-2N)
3♣ = maximum no 4♠
.....3♦ = 4♠ 5+♣ GF
.....3♥ = 4♠ 5+♦ GF
.....3♠ = 1444
.....3NT = 4144

3♦ = any strength with 4♠
.....3♥ = strong ♠ raise
.....3♠ = INV
.....3NT = 1444
.....4m = good suit with 4♠, fit dependent INV
.....4♥ = transfer
.....4♠ = sign-off

Again, this is all just brain-storming, but I'm just trying to graft the relays onto a good, playable NT structure. This probably isn't totally worth-while, and could probably just as well play 1N-2♣// 2♦-2♠=INV with 4/5♠, but not sure if this is much better. Thoughts are welcome.

[straube]

is 2C always GI+?

not always necessary for opener to declare. in fact often best to let the hidden hand declare. maybe...

2D no major or those hands with four hearts and three spades
.....2S gi with four hearts
.....2N gi with four spades
2H four spades but not four hearts
.....2N gi with four hearts
2S four hearts and two spades
2N five hearts minimum
3C 4/4 majors
etc resolves five hearts max

[straube]

is 2C always GI+?

not always necessary for opener to declare. in fact often best to let the hidden hand declare. maybe...

2D no major or those hands with four hearts and three spades
.....2S gi with four hearts
.....2N gi with four spades
2H four spades but not four hearts
.....2N gi with four hearts
2S four hearts and two spades
2N five hearts minimum
3C 4/4 majors
etc resolves five hearts max

[straube]

or...

after 2C GI+

2D no major or 4H/5m
.....2H gf relay
.....2S gi 5+spades
.....2N gi with one or both majors
..........3m minimum with 4H/5m
..........etc max with 4H/5m
2H four or five spades but not four hearts
.....2S gf relay
.....2N gi four hearts
2S four hearts and not four spades or five minor
.....2N four or five spades
.....3C gf relay
..........3D four clubs
..........etc
2N min with five hearts
3C 4/4 majors
etc resolving five heart maximums