[2over1]

“Freedom of speech has a downside-- we are stuck listening to everyone-- whether they have anything useful to say or are just stupid or annoying. Let's face it, some can be annoying-- me included at times. It is part and parcel of freedom to speak one's mind.

I would denounce any person in any forum who advocates this. It has less to do with BBO per se than the rights of individuals in general. Elimination of individuals' rights leads to totalitarianism. As someone who lives in a free country you should appreciate how precious that is.

Please appreciate my position-- had your request been granted it would inevitably lead to further hostilities. And I don't want to see BBO become more hostile than it already is. “

This is something I wrote in a previous thread when someone advocated giving table hosts the ability to close all chat. Indeed, BBO did integrate into the program the ability to turn off all spec chat. And that should have been it. No one liked it and few hosts used it. But it was made available as an “option.”

But that wasn't good enough for Weedo and Llande. They wanted the ability to open or close chat at will at the JEC table because a VERY FEW people (of which I definitely was NOT one) would occasionally make trouble. Often pointing out “personal deficiencies” of one of the players (no need to name him here). Their previous option was to close spec entirely a few minutes to get the few bad ones to shut up. This was probably an improvement... SO LONG AS THE PRIVILEGE THEY ASKED FOR WAS NOT ABUSED. But, as I've pointed out previously, the axiom about absolute power corrupting absolutely has reared its ugly head again...

Today I received THREE threats for making either innocuous or humorous statements at the JEC table. One of the threats was made openly for a VERY gentle bit of humor. I post the entirety of what was said below, with the included threat:

2over1->Kibitzers: test
2over1->Kibitzers: oh chat IS open
2over1->Kibitzers: why is everyone so quiet??
alan2220->Kibitzers: asleep
BHNN->Kibitzers: we skeeeeeeeeeered:(
2over1->Kibitzers: apparently..
2over1->Kibitzers: dont be afraid.. the water's fine
Moderator>Kibitzers: If u wish chat to remain on, u might want to limit ur conversation
2over1->Kibitzers: ah?
2over1->Kibitzers: i guess i said something baddddddddddddddddd
2over1->Kibitzers: ill be quiet


For obvious reasons I've omitted private conversations in which people spoke of the oppressive atmosphere and the chilling effect of censorship. I also took out some extraneous pieces of the chat that were of no consequence to what was going on.

This was the SECOND threat I'd received from the moderator today. The first one was in private. The reason? I told someone to “bite me”. For further edification, I tell this person to “bite me” daily in public (I actually say it to two or three people, some aloud, some privately) as a funny greeting.. and one that the moderator has seen me make daily for many years now. I see no point to make the entire conversation public as that's all there really was to it.

My answer was to tell the moderator to get his sense of humor back.

The seeds of oppression had already been sowed months ago, but now with the threat of this new tool the moderator has chosen to abuse the very privilege he asked for by making threats against me (and, from what I've been told, against others).

This is what happens when too much power is concentrated with too few.

Now, let me make something abundantly clear: I feel that new tool was needed by llande and weedo to stop the very bad actions of a very few- and those who regularly kib JEC know who those half dozen or so individuals are. But, if they are allowed to threaten people at will for innocuous statements such as what I set out above (and trust me, I left nothing of importance out), then I say get rid of that power completely.. because BBO has now imbued a few individuals... a VERY FEW.. with the ability to control and censor at will without regard to what may or may not be “free” speech. And they have shown a willingness to abuse that power. Which tramples on the rights of every one of us whether we act good or bad-- and that's oppression, my friends.

Sure, no one has the right to walk into that room and be abusive-- and I am not advocating complete freedom to say whatever one wants. But, when one is threatened for speech that no one in their right mind would take as abusive in the least, then something is very wrong with either the system or the administrator of that system. In this case, at least, the flaws lie with both.

One more thing. I received a third threat when I spoke IN PRIVATE to the moderator who threatened me. I called him a piss ant and told him he was abusing his authority. The worst thing I told him was to screw himself. He's now threatening to try and get me banned. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

I have been threatened three times today-- maybe I deserved the final one for telling him to screw himself for making the first two... but, hey, he had it coming. This is what happens when you give the ability to abuse and bully many to few.

[uday]

Quote

I called him a piss ant and .... I told him ... to screw himself. He's now threatening to try and get me banned.

Wonder why he doesn't like that

[2over1]

uday, on 2010-October-31, 19:20, said:

Wonder why he doesn't like that

Well I certainly didn't like being threatened TWICE IN ONE DAY for doing nothing abusive-- and I reallllllllllly don't take crap from anyone... as you know as well as anybody here.

[Ryan]

Two observations, here. 1) Any players at any table should have the right to allow or disallow kib chat at their discretion. Kibs are guests at any table, and players are--and should be--allowed to invite them or not, as they wish. Kibs may be excluded at any time for any reason, at the absolute whim of the players involved or at the whim of their tourny host or his representative. The "atmosphere" present in any table's kib chat is the sole province of the players or their representatives to control and to maintain. 2) The moderator of JEC kib chat has repeatedly stressed that he desires that kibs participate, in an collegeate atmosphere in which kibs and players alike feel comfortable. The current treatment that some kibs have received is hardly conducive to that stated goal. It is in that spirit that several JEC kibs have complained.

[the hog]

Well pissant is fairly harmless. It stems from the C14th and means someone who is insignificant, or of no importance.

[KingCur]

I must say I was shocked too when I entered the balcony of yesterday's early evening jec match and found myself and everyone else (temporarily) gagged. I told weedo in private that I do see their problem but also that I do not see this as a solution. Taking away peoples' opportunity to conversation because a few bad guys refuse to behave is quite simply disproportionate and I told both weedo and Llande in private that I would not come see a single jec match again as long as this measure would be in effect. The sole thing I got in reply was a "we will miss you".
This got me to think if I would ever consider coming back at all, even without the gag being in effect.
Guys: if this is the way you want to handle misbehavior, then you are well on your way to killing off everything that makes bridge on the internet such a success so far. The socializing is as much a great aspect of the jec games as watching and discussing the bridge. If you take that way, people simply wont bother to come watch anymore. After all, the games are usually good. But then again they're not that good that people would feel left without an alternative. BBO has a lot to offer in that respect, so don't overplay your hand here.

Other than that I concur with what was said about freedom of speech: living to it necessarily includes putting up with the crap of those unworthy of the principle. If you dó need a gagging device, start asking for one that can switch off speech from those misbehaving. But even the use of that asks for utmost reluctance.

[TimG]

2over1, on 2010-October-31, 19:11, said:

Today I received THREE threats for making either innocuous or humorous statements at the JEC table. One of the threats was made openly for a VERY gentle bit of humor. I post the entirety of what was said below, with the included threat:

Why didn't you post the humor part?

[ArleneFG]

It is a shame that normal, civilzed people have to be handcuffed verbally and are not allowed to speak about anything germane to society and/or life. Obviously there are a few crazies here, but there will always be a few crazies. Most of us who watch the jec matches are intelligent, rational human beings with minds that include other things besides bridge. Obviously BBO is a bridge site, and personally I am happy to play there. However, it is also a social site, and most people seem to gather at the jec matches. So what's the big deal if we talk about other things besides bridge? I am not advocating mean or hateful opinions or statements but normal intelligent human conversation.

[Bbradley62]

I'm sorry, but... what is "the JEC table"?

[MrAce]

Steve, i will not get into what happened between you and LL, since as u said there are things that were said in private. However shortly, as far as i know LL, and being close to him as much as an online friend can be, he is a decent man in a lot of other criterias.

Having said that, however, i have to agree with that power abuse topic. Yes i know there are some @#$% there who comes and curse, make racist rants, stupid comments or whatever you want to call it. But...

1-None of these are excuse neither for BBO or LL to punish the "INNOCENT" ( LL did that a lot by simply banning all 400 specs for 3-4 people)

2-Furthermore none of these are excuse to think that critisizing JEC or his sytem, or his defense or his declarer play, is disrespectful.

3-Telling spectators (LL said today) which subject they are allowed to converse, is abuse of power. As Aaron reacted to him "Anyone who thinks one can converse on a single topic does not understand the meaning of conversation"


Now, what are we going to do ? Seeing LL or BBO as an enemy and thinking they are doing this intentionally to abuse us, is wrong imo. There are other reasons behind that; BBO is understaffed and the software is old and they do not want to babysit 50-60-70 years old adults, just because they can't act like adults. So they are trying to come up with new tools for table hosts (eventhough not for all table hosts) and giving them more power to manage the people at their table.

They are not capable of banning any individual, due to BBO being free and anyone who can create a new account and capable of hacking his registery can come back in less than 60 seconds. Also veteran internet users know well, that internet CAN NOT BE disciplined. Even FBI gave up on it ( all child porno sites, terror sites etc etc...)

I think we (Kibs) can try to use some more common sense, and BBO can come up with better toys that also protects the INNOCENT from admin abuse, and Admins can try to understand "i am doing because i can" attitude wont get them anywhere.

Madame De Stael "Scientific progress makes moral progress a necessity; for if man's power is increased, the checks that restrain him from abusing it must be strengthened"

James Madison “Liberty may be endangered by the abuse of liberty, but also by the abuse of power.”

[barmar]

Bbradley62, on 2010-October-31, 21:04, said:

I'm sorry, but... what is "the JEC table"?

Most days there are two set team games, at 2pm and 7pm ET, where the Cayne team plays some other team. These often have more kibbitzers than some Vugraphs.

[Bbradley62]

Since I don't know any of the people involved, let me be sure I understand...

Twice a day, a world-class team arranges to play against another team. They also arrange to have a discussion moderator, so that many kibitzers (I don't know whether the 400 given above is an exaggeration) can watch the match and discuss it. Kibs are requested to restrict their public conversation to comments about the match, to avoid cluttering everyone's computer screens and therefore make it less difficult to follow the match-related conversation. Of course, kibs can carry on private conversations amongst themselves, since those don't interfere with everyone else's ability to follow the match and the conversation about it.

Some kibs find this request offensive?

[1eyedjack]

In principle I see no objection to a table host having absolute power, provided that it is limited to power over his own table. And if that leads to his corruption, then where is the harm in that? Again, he can be as corrupt as he likes at his own table. I have no duty as a saviour of souls. He will end up at a table of one individual, but that's his lookout.

[paulg]

1eyedjack, on 2010-October-31, 23:39, said:

In principle I see no objection to a table host having absolute power, provided that it is limited to power over his own table. And if that leads to his corruption, then where is the harm in that? Again, he can be as corrupt as he likes at his own table. I have no duty as a saviour of souls. He will end up at a table of one individual, but that's his lookout.

I agree. It is a private match at a private table. Kibitzers are effectively there by invitation. The host rules.

[helene_t]

It's so easy to protect oneself against abusive chat. Just mark the offenders as enemies.

I don't need a nanny to protect me.

[palpal]

I've been a regular (but silent) kib in the corner of JEC table for some years.

I go there to watch some good bridge, AND to read the fun chatt, I've blocked a few morons, and find LL to normaly be a sensible moderator, who also take part in the sometimes "twisted" chatt. However in this case I'm totaly on your side, Stevil !!!

If they want kibbs, let them have the small talk, and let the yellows deal with the (very few) morons. in general the ppl are nice and polite, and fresh kibs who ask about something normaly get good answers from yhe other kibs. Let us have it that way!!

"I love this bar" (Not copyrighted i hope, Timo?)

[babalu1997]

paulg, on 2010-November-01, 03:01, said:

I agree. It is a private match at a private table. Kibitzers are effectively there by invitation. The host rules.

This is true.

If you think trolls only show up at the jec table, you are wrong.

The other day, in a slow time at bbo, kibbitzers gathered at a table I was playing, I suppose at the suggestion of the software.

There was no moderator, the host did not speak english and some idiots decided to criticize my bidding, some in open chat, others in private. I immediately put them on enemy list, the game was fun and partner and I were ahead by 40 imps.

a kibbitzer by definition offers unwanted opinion.

you can enemy the trolls, you can leave the game and return tomorrow, and if the moderator tells you to piss off, well, piss off. Come back tomorrow, the moderator prolly wont bother you.

i dont see why you should bring bbo into this.

moderators have to put with a lot of s***, and they have to be on call for several hours a stretch to provide you with entertainement stevil.

[2over1]

babalu1997, on 2010-November-01, 09:26, said:

moderators have to put with a lot of s***, and they have to be on call for several hours a stretch to provide you with entertainement stevil.

I can only assume you didn't read the original post-- perhaps you do not speak English as a 1st language... whatever.

The reason BBO is being brought into this is specifically BBO imbued this individual with "exceptional" powers. When someone, such as a yellow, is given "exceptional powers" that person has the duty to act responsibly. When that individual acts IRRESPONSIBLY as here, then chaos inevitably ensues. To avoid chaos, BBO should ensure those individuals act within their proscribed realm.

If you're argument is "it's his table, he can act irresponsibly", well let me tell you that was tried on BBO a few years back-- and all hell broke loose. I don't want to get into old, dead stuff here and I know I'm leaving a lot of readers scratching their heads, but the people who've been here a long time know what I'm referring to-- and so does Uday.

By allowing a few individuals the right to have additional influence WITHOUT REGARD TO how they use that influence is allowing totalitarianism. And if you, or paulg, or anyone else, thinks that's a good idea, well I disagree. So do 40 million people in France..

[Phil]

I drop into the JEC matches a few times a week. Even been asked to play in one, and the level of play is as high as any regular game that you will see on BBO.

The kib chatter ranges from:

• Food;
  
• A lot of public "Hi Ferd(s)" (which I do not care for, but it comes with the territory);
  
• Occasionally bridge (the comments range from idiotic, to obvious, to sometimes brilliant - some are mean-spirited, but most are not);
  
  
  
• but sometimes discussion about:
  
  
• politics;
  
• off-color jokes;
  
• personal attacks on individuals;
  
• tasteless comments

It is the last four that LL has to contend with. What is offensive to some is not to others, and its sensible to err on the conservative side in these matters. Is it censorship? Of course, but its a private party and we are invited guests. There are no public rights conferred. Think of it as the Bridgebase 'terms of service' in a truncated form.

Put it this way, if I attend a free party and someone starts discussion about any of the last four topics on my list either that person will get kicked out, or no one will get invited anymore. Since LL is not afforded rights to exclude or bounce a few troublemakers from the party, he does not have any choice than to close things down.

I'm pretty sure JEC likes the attention. These are exhibition matches. If JEC wanted to keep his skills up, and work on his partnership with Miami, there are more effective ways to do it. LL is handed the job as the gatekeeper and needs to pull the breaker once in awhile to keep things in line. However the only option is the nuclear one and we need to live with it.

[matmat]

I still chuckle about the time I was told "NO POLITICS" when I asked who the proud people of Elbonia should elect.