[Fluffy]

---

Appart from your bidding decision I am willing to know what is for you a prototypical hand for 2nd seat 4 spade opening (and if its different from 4 hearts)

[Cyberyeti]

Fluffy, on 2010-October-31, 05:00, said:

---

Appart from your bidding decision I am willing to know what is for you a prototypical hand for 2nd seat 4 spade opening (and if its different from 4 hearts)

Prototypically 8 solid and out.

I'll probably use blackwood and sign off unless partner shows 2 without in which case I'll bid 6 or 2 with where I'll bid 7.

Yes I miss it opposite some things like KQJ to 9, but things are not perfect here.

[mtvesuvius]

I got burned on a similar hand last night... I'll Keycard, and opposite partner's assumed 1 KC, I guess I'll queen ask. Not thrilled about it, but I expect a bit more than KQxxxxxx and not much outside. Opposite 2 with the Queen, I'm not bidding the grand. AKQxxxx is a definite possibility.

Side note: What would 5♠ mean here? I think maybe this is a case for being a trump cuebid (Meaning a void lol), and asking partner to evaluate opposite a void. I've had about 3 hands similar to this come up recently, and have yet to get one right.

[Fluffy]

5♠ would typically be a cover for all side cards but with singleton spade, partner would normally bid 5NT with AKQJ, not sure about AKQ.

But what do you expect 4♠ second position be? is a 7-4 with a not so solid suit (KJ109) possible?, a weak 8-4? or is it highly constructive?

[mtvesuvius]

Fluffy, on 2010-October-31, 08:57, said:

But what do you expect 4♠ second position be? is a 7-4 with a not so solid suit (KJ109) possible?, a weak 8-4? or is it highly constructive?

Certainly possible, many 8-4s etc... Which is why if I can bid 5♠ on a hand like this I'll be a lot happier

However, I think a minimum for me might be something like KJT9xxx - Qxxxx x... Tough to say exactly. I wouldn't call it highly constructive, but I think that it should be a hand that won't be incredibly uncomfortable if partner moves over the 4♠ opener. Somewhere between pre-emptive and constructive... "Mixed"

[Cyberyeti]

It's strange, I've had this discussion with partner over 4m, where we have room to do stuff, but not over 4♠. I would not ever expect partner to have only 7 spades here in second seat, in first or 3rd he might have virtually anything, but we tend to be very traditional and semi constructive in second.

[dake50]

I have a solid-suit Spade bid.
Here 4NT asks S-tops, not A-ask, not keys. I try that.

[mtvesuvius]

dake50, on 2010-October-31, 09:47, said:

I have a solid-suit Spade bid.
Here 4NT asks S-tops, not A-ask, not keys. I try that.

So is your style to not pre-empt 4M with an outside Keycard I assume then? Otherwise it is pretty much impossible to find any outside Keycards (Unless you were to use 5♣ as RKC or something...)

[OleBerg]

I expect it to make.

[mikeh]

I think the answer is that it depends on how many ways you have to open 4♠. Playing a form of namyats (4♦ as a good 4♠) or 3N as a solid major, 4♠ becomes more preemptive than constructive, even in 2nd seat, equal vul.

Playing some method whereby this is a preempt, lacking constructive overtones,I think this is a very close decision. Wouldn't we all open 4♠ with KQ1098xxx and out, even in second seat, equal? And that sort of hand lacks 5 level safety.

Keycard is unlikely to tell us what we want to hear, since the spade J is often going to be the key to the hand.

I'd pass playing opposite me, since I'd have the weaker of the possible hand types, and never the stronger, due to methods.

But if playing wide-range, the risk of missing an easy slam when partner has a good hand seems to me to be greater than the risk of failing at the 5-level when he has a bad hand.

I think 5♠ should be trump ask in this sort of approach...I think we may get too high (in either 5 or 6) on occasion, but I doubt we'll miss any decent slams.

[mfa1010]

OleBerg, on 2010-October-31, 11:59, said:

I expect it to make.

Opposite you I would just pray for it to make.

I would pass 4♠. Most hands with an 8-bagger would open 4♠. And there might be a problem outside trumps also.

[the hog]

I will bid 5S, asking partner to bid 6 with good trumps.

[655321]

mfa1010, on 2010-October-31, 14:47, said:

I would pass 4♠. Most hands with an 8-bagger would open 4♠. And there might be a problem outside trumps also.

This for me.

[nigel_k]

Raise to 5♠ down one for me too.

[cherdano]

I would pass. I think it's pretty clear actually.

[OleBerg]

mfa1010, on 2010-October-31, 14:47, said:

Opposite you I would just pray for it to make.

I would pass 4♠. Most hands with an 8-bagger would open 4♠. And there might be a problem outside trumps also.

Fortunately I can't play with myself.