[BunnyGo]

This hand came up in a team game. Not exactly sure how to get this correct (besides the wonder of hindsight). Was it just unlucky, or is there blame to be assigned?

Link to the Hand

[Fluffy]

I don't like 2NT, you have a source of tricks and want to involve partner into judging cards like ♠Q positivelly.

There is a big ammount of bad luck involved too, since 2NT will normally help you more than 1♠ when south jumps to the 5 level, but this time 1♠ bid unveils teh double fit, and forces east to make another bid (close between double and 5♥, but west won't accept the double with double fit anyway). The lead thing is just another chink of bad luck.

In my experience many 5 level doubled contracts happen when a double fit nobody was aware happens, its just some random luck.

[Cyberyeti]

Fluffy, on 2010-October-30, 02:39, said:

I don't like 2NT, you have a source of tricks and want to involve partner into judging cards like ♠Q positivelly.

There is a big ammount of bad luck involved too, since 2NT will normally help you more than 1♠ when south jumps to the 5 level, but this time 1♠ bid unveils teh double fit, and forces east to make another bid (close between double and 5♥, but west won't accept the double with double fit anyway). The lead thing is just another chink of bad luck.

In my experience many 5 level doubled contracts happen when a double fit nobody was aware happens, its just some random luck.

Agreed, if you have the initial 2♠ bid available to show this hand (we don't quite, because it guarantees Qxxx or better in opener's suit for us), then that is best, but we'd bid 1♠ rather than 2N.

Prize for the spade lead and club switch, but without partner bidding them, you're not going to find it, and if partner does bid them you will probably not defend.

[gwnn]

bad luck.

Don't like 1♠ from East at all.

[rhm]

gwnn, on 2010-October-30, 03:51, said:

bad luck.

Don't like 1♠ from East at all.

Why?
After all only an unlikely club lead will beat 6♠ from East.
East can anticipate that in a ♠ contract he might discard a minor suit loser on the ♥.
For example give West the same hand but the ♥ ace instead of a small ♥.
7♠ now is a very good contract while 7♥ would be hopeless.

Early trump agreement has its advantages but sometimes it makes it almost impossible to reach the right contract.

Rainer Herrmann

[TWO4BRIDGE]

This is a problem hand for Responder in 2/1 GF .

But, it is a poster child hand for the little used auction of 1H - 2S! as a fit-showing-jump ( first presented to me by Bill Higgins ... who I haven't seen posting here in quite awhile ).

( It is the ONLY FSJ used in the system w/o intervening interference or as a passed hand ... and gives up the WSJ ).

1H - ( p ) - 2S! - (5D)
??
Still the 5D gives us a headache, but at least Opener knows of the double-fit ! ! and will at least get to 5S.

[gwnn]

oops double post. weird.

[gwnn]

rhm, on 2010-October-30, 05:34, said:

Why?
After all only an unlikely club lead will beat 6♠ from East.
East can anticipate that in a ♠ contract he might discard a minor suit loser on the ♥.
For example give West the same hand but the ♥ ace instead of a small ♥.
7♠ now is a very good contract while 7♥ would be hopeless.

Early trump agreement has its advantages but sometimes it makes it almost impossible to reach the right contract.

Rainer Herrmann

I don't like bidding a new suit with 4 card support, except with 6-4 sometimes. Just a personal preference. I think the + and - are quite clear so it's unnecessary to repeat them For example, surely East also can anticipate that in a ♥ contract his partner might discard a lot of minor suit losers on the spades too

[Cyberyeti]

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2010-October-30, 08:22, said:

This is a problem hand for Responder in 2/1 GF .

But, it is a poster child hand for the little used auction of 1H - 2S! as a fit-showing-jump ( first presented to me by Bill Higgins ... who I haven't seen posting here in quite awhile ).

( It is the ONLY FSJ used in the system w/o intervening interference or as a passed hand ... and gives up the WSJ ).

1H - ( p ) - 2S! - (5D)
??
Still the 5D gives us a headache, but at least Opener knows of the double-fit ! ! and will at least get to 5S.

I play the fit showing jumps, but find it much more useful to define them a bit better as to suit quality and Jxxx of hearts is not sufficient although the spades are fine. In the context of a weak no trump and 4 card majors, not that many people play weak jump shifts, so we play all the jumps as this sort of thing or a one suited rock crusher.

[Bbradley62]

Fluffy, on 2010-October-30, 02:39, said:

...but this time 1♠ bid unveils teh double fit, and forces east to make another bid (close between double and 5♥, but west won't accept the double with double fit anyway).

If the auction is 1♥-(P)-1♠-(5♦)-P-(P)-Dbl-(P), neither East nor West knows about the double fit.

[Fluffy]

yeah that's true, but both have a big support they are really willing to show if they have a chance

[OleBerg]

Sorry to be an asshole (well not that sorry), but suggesting 1♠ hardly qualifies for an advanced forum, and it reeks of resulting.

Even if you want to play a style(ugh), where you bid a source of tricks instead of establishing a nine-card major fit, AKxxx is not the suit to choose.

Bidding some sort of Jacoby 2NT will normally solve all your problems in uncontested auctions. And in contested auctions it is even more important.

Just like in the actual hand. After a 1♠ reply, it is silly to suggest EW has any other options, than to double 5♦. After the 2NT-bid, and Wests sligthly courageous pass, EW has a chance to get to 5♥, which Eastshould not be far from bidding. If partner does not hold three small spades, 5♥ will probably be an excellent contract.

[TimG]

Bbradley62, on 2010-October-30, 09:51, said:

If the auction is 1♥-(P)-1♠-(5♦)-P-(P)-Dbl-(P), neither East nor West knows about the double fit.

Won't East be likely to bid 5♥ here? Perhaps that is a argument for showing the fit immediately rather than starting with 1♠, but I think once East starts down that path he has to go through with showing hearts at his next turn.

[wank]

OleBerg, on 2010-October-30, 15:15, said:

Sorry to be an asshole (well not that sorry), but suggesting 1♠ hardly qualifies for an advanced forum, and it reeks of resulting.

Even if you want to play a style(ugh), where you bid a source of tricks instead of establishing a nine-card major fit, AKxxx is not the suit to choose.

Bidding some sort of Jacoby 2NT will normally solve all your problems in uncontested auctions. And in contested auctions it is even more important.

Just like in the actual hand. After a 1♠ reply, it is silly to suggest EW has any other options, than to double 5♦. After the 2NT-bid, and Wests sligthly courageous pass, EW has a chance to get to 5♥, which Eastshould not be far from bidding. If partner does not hold three small spades, 5♥ will probably be an excellent contract.

perhaps i should move to the kiddies forum, but i'd be bidding 1S for the reason fluffy said, i.e. you want partner to value the Q of S if he's got it. what are you hoping to achieve with 2NT? if you play a version of jacoby where partner shows side suit length (obv don't know what you do, but there are lots of versions) it's even worse - who cares about partner's 4 card minor?

you've got an essentially balanced hand and Gf strength and one opp has already passed. resulting merchating imo is prediciting that the bidding will be coming back to you at the 5 level

[mikeh]

OleBerg, on 2010-October-30, 15:15, said:

Sorry to be an asshole (well not that sorry), but suggesting 1♠ hardly qualifies for an advanced forum, and it reeks of resulting.

Even if you want to play a style(ugh), where you bid a source of tricks instead of establishing a nine-card major fit, AKxxx is not the suit to choose.

Bidding some sort of Jacoby 2NT will normally solve all your problems in uncontested auctions. And in contested auctions it is even more important.

Just like in the actual hand. After a 1♠ reply, it is silly to suggest EW has any other options, than to double 5♦. After the 2NT-bid, and Wests sligthly courageous pass, EW has a chance to get to 5♥, which Eastshould not be far from bidding. If partner does not hold three small spades, 5♥ will probably be an excellent contract.

I think I have a reasonable claim to be at least an 'advanced player' and it wouldn't occur to me to bid anything other than 1♠....but, maybe unlike you, I like to have dialogues with partner on complex hands.

I don't think we should ever plan our initial choice fearing our next call will be at the 5-level, but on this hand I have enough tools to show primary spades and real heart support and game+ values...which may allow parner, on different layouts, look on, say, Qx of spades with pleasure. Any advantage to 1♠ on this actual deal is irrelevant to my thinking, so my choice is not, in the least, a case of 'resulting'...more of an underlying philosophy where I like to involve partner unless I have a simple hand.

[Zelandakh]

There is a way to have your cake and eat it too, at least for uncontested auctions. For example, after 1H - 2NT you might play 3C as a minimum with side shortage. 3D would ask for the shortage which frees up 3S to show a source of tricks. This does not help with this situation but it does mean you can enter into a discussion with partner even when you show support immediately.

[OleBerg]

mikeh, on 2010-October-30, 22:29, said:

I think I have a reasonable claim to be at least an 'advanced player'

No doubt. This is just an area where you have to shape up then.

Quote

and it wouldn't occur to me to bid anything other than 1♠....but, maybe unlike you, I like to have dialogues with partner on complex hands.

You're right, I don't. But my partner does, and he stands 6 feet and 2, so I indulge him. And the one most importent feature of the hand is that we have 4-card-support for hearts. It tells partner we will play in hearts, so he can discard all thoughts of NT and other suits, and evaluate his hand for slam-purposes. Knowing we have four-card-support also helps partner in assesing his thrumph-suit.

Quote

I don't think we should ever plan our initial choice fearing our next call will be at the 5-level,

I don't. I imagine any non-spade-support bid, where ambiguety will rule. Worst of all, the cases where partner takes us to 4♠ on a three-card suit.

Quote

but on this hand I have enough tools to show primary spades and real heart support and game+ values

Can you indeed? Distinguish betweem three-and four-card support?

Quote

...which may allow parner, on different layouts, look on, say, Qx of spades with pleasure.

Which is a quite overrated thing to be able to do. The most importent thing for this hand, that cuebidding wont resolve (and some Jacoby variants leave in the dark too), is the danger of an undiscardable third-round spade loser. And 1♠ doesn't help much here.

Quote

Any advantage to 1♠ on this actual deal is irrelevant to my thinking, so my choice is not, in the least, a case of 'resulting'...more of an underlying philosophy where I like to involve partner unless I have a simple hand.

I know I repeat myself, but bidding 2NT involves partner too. And is sends the most important message; I have four-card-support.

[dake50]

West made a "I want to suggest higher" instead of double to suggest "I fear higher".
Yet East with 4-support + 5-suit to AK + DA didn't go?? A-stounding!

[Bbradley62]

TimG, on 2010-October-30, 15:59, said:

Bbradley62, on 2010-October-30, 09:51, said:

Fluffy, on 2010-October-30, 02:39, said:

... but this time 1♠ bid unveils the double fit, and forces east to make another bid (close between double and 5♥, but west won't accept the double with double fit anyway).

If the auction is 1♥-(P)-1♠-(5♦)-P-(P)-Dbl-(P), neither East nor West knows about the double fit.

Won't East be likely to bid 5♥ here? Perhaps that is a argument for showing the fit immediately rather than starting with 1♠, but I think once East starts down that path he has to go through with showing hearts at his next turn.

Yes, East probably would be likely to bid 5♥ here, but I was responding to Fluffy's statement that West wouldn't sit for the double because of the double fit; West wouldn't know about the double fit.

[mikeh]

OleBerg, on 2010-October-31, 01:37, said:

No doubt. This is just an area where you have to shape up then.


You're right, I don't. But my partner does, and he stands 6 feet and 2, so I indulge him. And the one most importent feature of the hand is that we have 4-card-support for hearts. It tells partner we will play in hearts, so he can discard all thoughts of NT and other suits, and evaluate his hand for slam-purposes. Knowing we have four-card-support also helps partner in assesing his thrumph-suit.


I don't. I imagine any non-spade-support bid, where ambiguety will rule. Worst of all, the cases where partner takes us to 4♠ on a three-card suit.


Can you indeed? Distinguish betweem three-and four-card support?


Which is a quite overrated thing to be able to do. The most importent thing for this hand, that cuebidding wont resolve (and some Jacoby variants leave in the dark too), is the danger of an undiscardable third-round spade loser. And 1♠ doesn't help much here.


I know I repeat myself, but bidding 2NT involves partner too. And is sends the most important message; I have four-card-support.

You play in a partnership in which, after responding 1♠, you end up in a 5-3 spade fit rather than a 9 card heart fit? I don't think I (or anyone else) needs bidding advice from you.