[sceptic]

Scoring: IMP

---

West North East South

 -     -     1♦    Pass
 1♥    Pass  2♥    5♣
 Pass  Pass  Pass  


Ok, opinions here please, after weighing up the bidding and my thoughts were I had one diamond loser and P prob had some help for me (no idea why I though that), anyway I bid 5 clubs x and make 11 trx, can you tell me if you think I was sensible or down right reckless

[Free]

I think this is not the kind of stuff you have to learn at beginners...

[pclayton]

Sceptic, between the 4♠ rewound hand and this, I think you made two unbelievably questionable calls (I'm being diplomatic when I say that) that both worked out. I get the sense you are either fishing for a compliment or trying to find peer justification on your 'brilliancies'.

4♠ xx'd looks like its touch and go; I think they need to get the tap established real early to beat you at all. Nice to catch that side ♣ fit, well done.

On this hand, 5♣ is just plain bizarre. I can see that diamonds are 3-2, and pard holds the essential spade 10, so 5♣ is wrapping. On an entirely different layout, consistent with the bidding, 5♣ is going for about 1700, against a plus our way defending hearts.

But I suppose you wouldn't have posted that hand.

[EricK]

It seems very lucky. I would expect partner to have a fair number of ♥ and ♠ on the bidding. He had about the minimum number of major suit cards possible (and hence the maximum number of supporting cards for you.

But as they say "If you can't be good, be lucky"

Eric

[flytoox]

overcall 2C, dont pass 1D.

[Dwayne]

sceptic, on Aug 18 2004, 03:17 PM, said:

can you tell me if you think I was sensible or down right reckless

I can think of many, many adjectives for this 5C overcall but until I get grip on international slander laws I'll just stick to the simple and probably most effective: "Bad".

I'd agree with pc's comments, too. If Septic wants this forum to provide a truly objective assessment of her bidding judgement, then how about posting some of the (dare I say) dozens of examples where the play went awry after similar unilateral bidding sequences.

Dwayne Porterhouse III

[jfy18]

Is it just I, or do others feel that the rather pejorative, aggressive tone of some of the replies is unproductive? Sceptic asked for views on this hand, rather than on (hypothetical) other hands.

[the hog]

Sorry Sceptic, but 5C is an appalling bid. Why oh why don't people bid what they have? If you want to overcall 2C, tht is fine; the fact that you have length in their suit should be a plus, not a deterrent. If you don't believe me, read Lawrence's book on overcalls.

You were very lucky this time, far more lucky than you deserved to be.

[epeeist]

The problem with the bid, in my view, is not so much that it's risky as that it shows distrust for your partner. Though I disagree with your initial pass, you're asking about your 5♣ bid...

Now, if in a situation like an individual tournament where you have no idea what your partner's skills are or what your partner may do (I've had Stayman passed by p!), jumping to game (risking that p may have some help for you) is more understandable -- and in that situation, I would be more sympathetic to your jump to 5♣.

But in a pairs game, you should trust your partner a bit. Depending on your p and what your bidding system is, you might double, or bid 4♣, or cuebid 3♥, or bid 3NT, or something else which is unusual enough your p will feel compelled to bid (and that bid may help you)Also, what if your p, having shown absolutely no points, and with you jumping to 5♣, decides to trust you have a reason to bid 5♣, and with 9 points, Qxx in ♣ and the A♠, raises you to 6♣ or cuebids 5♠ to show a stopper?

[bearmum]

I would have overcalled 2♣ --- but you asked about the 5♣bid ---- so MY 2¢ worth
I think you were REALLY lucky on this hand to find your partner (who afterall had PASSED the 1♥ bid) with exactly the right cards ........IMO a call like that crashes more often than it gets a good result

[sceptic]

actually I have posted bad hands, I am not fishing for compliments as I dont think any are deserved in the 5!C hand, I just wanted to see if my thoughts are going to far awry, I have been reading and listening to some people talk abourt distribution counting for more than HCP and I have made some bids that fall flat on their face, I am learning and have a long way to go to become advanced, which is what I would like to be.


Some things I do work and some don't I was looking for constructive thoughts on my 5!C bid if there are none then I am worse than I suspect, but I can live with that. I will keep postng hands that I dont understand why they make or dont make and hands that I think I have bid badly and make, unfortunately I dont and never have played live bridge so I have no one to talk to about it, except two excellent teachers, but they cant be expected to answer every little query I have.

[whereagles]

Well, here are some constructive comments:

1. You decided to pass the 1st round. A direct 2C overcall is an ok bid because partner rates to be short in diamonds, and therefore is bound to have a few cards in clubs. Since the 2C overcall also has the merit of making it quite hard for opps to bid their major suits, I think it's a better bid than pass at this point. Note that after a 2C overcall, West might not want to bid and they end up not even mentioning hearts. But I don't have any problems with pass. After all, if pard's expected club cards appear in the majors, you'd be in trouble.

2. After opponents found a fit, it is known your side is (almost) bound to have a fit as well. This means it's even safer to bid clubs the 2nd round. So an overcall here is a good bid, almost devoid of risk.

3. However, to what level you want to bid? Or rather, what do you hope to achieve with an overcall here?

If you want to point out a good lead, or to force opps to the three-level, then 3C is enough.

If you think they might want to try for a game, 4C is the right bid. You know the heart game rates not to make because of bad breaks in the red suits and your two quick tricks in clubs. The major risk of bidding 4C is actually your pard! 4C might induce him to take an expensive phantom 5C save over a non-making 4H. While a good pard should be suspicious of 4C (your pass 1st round, his lenght in hearts), there are no guarantees pard will take the right view. But on the other hand, 4C might also steal the pot for your side, or pard might have a heart stack and double 4H.

Now, on to 5C... This is bound to accomplish very little, if anything at all. If opps were going to bid their (likely non-making) game, they're going to double you now. They won't be bidding 5H because West knows exactly what East has and, looking at short diamonds, will double you on the spot. If they were going to pass your 3C or 4C, they'll pass now as well, and you go down when you might have made 3C or 4C. After all, you don't expect to make 5C with both opps bidding and pard passing, do you?

The point here is, while your 5C bid does show some good reading of how the cards lie, you have failed to see the problem from the opponent's side. The bid does not create any problems for them and puts your side in too high a contract most of the time. You can understand, of course, that, in the long run, this is too risky a strategy to produce consistently good results

[Chamaco]

Hello Wayne, nice to see your 5C bid worked out !

Anyway, here are a few considerations about the choices you had to face:

1) passing the 1D bid.
When you have a good hand with values in opps suit, you can usually pass, bid your suit (if you have any), or bid notrump (if enough hcp).
Passing with a very good hand is often described as "trap pass".

How should one decide when making a trap pass ?
I think that the use of "trap pass" at mid-low level is often an abuse: people pass with a good hand with values in opps suit and then they feel compelled to bid at a higher level, when it is much more dangerous.

My tip of "trap-passing" is the following: "Make a trap pass if, - and only if - you are happy defending vs the doubled contract at the level just bid by RHO"

That means that if you have a feature, either distributional or strength, that suggest you may play the hand, that is usually more rewarding than penalizing opps at 1 or 2 level.
In such cases it is better to bid your feature at a low level, and pard will place the contract.

In the current hand, your feature is the club suit: your hand may well penalize diamonds, but your distribution tells you for sure they will land in a major, so it is much better to bid 2C and then if opard is weak pass throughout.


2) your 5C bid over 2H
5C is basically a preemptive bid. In that case much better was to preempt one round before before they exchanged info on the heart fit.

Now, your hand is not a preemptive hand. You have some defensive tricks, so you can afford to bid 3C forcing opps to a higher level, and bringing in your opartner in the bidding dialogue, rather than doing all by yourself.

Finally- or maybe I should have started with this point - the diamond suit tends to discourage to bid, rather than the opposite: they have bid diamonds, you have values in their suit.

[pbleighton]

1) As others have said, bid 2C. A general rule - if you can bid, do so as early as possible. Your partner can then support you, if he can. If you have passed, then 3D is sufficient in the second round.
2) If you don't know it already, learn the Law of Total Tricks. Larry Cohen's Book To Bid Or Not To Bid is excellent. I won't go into it here, but it is a relatively simple tool which can keep you out of a lot of trouble in competitive auctions, while allowing you to bid in the ones you should be in.
3) Old bridge saying "the five level belongs to the opponents". This is not always true, but 90% of the time, it is.
4) My partner used to ignore 2) and 3) on a regular basis, with usually bad results. He would, however, get hands such as the one you posted, and feel that his intuition was vindicated. He finally came to the conclusion (with a little bit of help from me ) that he should be more careful.
5) I've been playing less than 2 years, and have learned a lot from this Forum. You will get a lot of input, though sometimes contradictory and not always polite Keep reading and posting!

Peter

[paulhar]

jfy18, on Aug 18 2004, 09:23 PM, said:

Is it just I, or do others feel that the rather pejorative, aggressive tone of some of the replies is unproductive? Sceptic asked for views on this hand, rather than on (hypothetical) other hands.

Totally agree - maybe that's why most beginners are afraid to post here.

[pclayton]

paulhar, on Aug 19 2004, 09:23 AM, said:

jfy18, on Aug 18 2004, 09:23 PM, said:

Is it just I, or do others feel that the rather pejorative, aggressive tone of some of the replies is unproductive? Sceptic asked for views on this hand, rather than on (hypothetical) other hands.

Totally agree - maybe that's why most beginners are afraid to post here.

OK - guilty as charged. Sorry I was a little harsh.

Paul, I guess the 'lightning rods' around here (like us ) have to keep each other in line.

I'll do my part to keep the B/I area kinder and gentler

[sceptic]

Clayton, you are entitled to your opinion, I bear no malice, I asked for comments, may be a kick up the backside is what I need on some hands, check out my post 1!C p p p that is an example of my posted hands, I have seen one of your lessons in BIL so I know you are good and worth listening to with your opinions.

But Paul is right there are beginners and intermediates that wont post her for fear of exactly what your post was like.. hehe.. the 5!C bid you commented on, the most positive comment I expected was lucky barsteward.

I generally post hands here because I dont know what I did right or wrong and just looking for opinions, if I want adulation I can ask the wife as she worships the ground I walk on and with good reason, I am but a humble individual.

My sole purpose here in these forums is to improve not to inflate my ego