[Zelandakh]

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2010-October-28, 04:39, said:

Zel....

My 2S! is not your ordinary SJS.

I understand that your 2S bid is not a SJS and is made on many additional hand types that are not covered by 2S in 'Standard'. My point is that either the hand is a GF or it isn't. If it is a GF then the correct rebid in 'Standard' is 2S, not 1S. If it is not a GF then you cannot use your GF gadget. Of course you might have higher responding standards than 'Standard' and this makes up the difference but this is not something you have disclosed over several articles where you have shown the convention. Finally, I happen to agree with you that putting more hands into the lowest GF bid and fewer into higher ones is generally a good idea if it can be done without causing too much confusion (to partner, not the opps). This is essentially the same argument as moving balanced hands into the 2C 2/1 response and keeping 2D as a 'pure' 5+ suit.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

Thx Zel...

A K Q J
J x
x
A Q 9 x x x

9 8 7 6
A Q x x
K Q x
K x

You make a good point; and I re-examined the hand yesterday when you brought up the GF issue.

I think I AM a point or 2 short of making a GF with Opener's hand ( maybe replace the Cl Q with the K ).

I was a victim of "double-dummy" bidding and over enthusiasm of the "toy".
For example if Responder does not have 4 cards Sp and a weaker hand, I maybe in real trouble about finding a satifactory game, much less slam !

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Edit: BTW, I'm impressed with your "Big Club" auction on the other thread: Edit: Bid These...by Phil re. the 1H opening ( http://www.bridgebas...se/page__st__20) .... eventho I don't understand the system..... yet .

[andy_h]

Fluffy, on 2010-October-28, 04:59, said:

I guess many of the problems in this hand can be solved by serious/non serious 3NT.

Agree with this, especially when both hands seem to be unlimited, it's a very useful gadget to have.

[Zelandakh]

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2010-October-29, 04:14, said:

You make a good point; and I re-examined the hand yesterday when you brought up the GF issue.

I think I AM a point or 2 short of making a GF with Opener's hand ( maybe replace the Cl Q with the K ).

I was a victim of "double-dummy" bidding and over enthusiasm of the "toy".
For example if Responder does not have 4 cards Sp and a weaker hand, I maybe in real trouble about finding a satifactory game, much less slam !

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Edit: BTW, I'm impressed with your "Big Club" auction on the other Misadventures.... thread re. the 1H opening .... eventho I don't understand the system.

What you said sounds about right although impossible with this South hand. Changing the HJ into the HK and downgrading the SJ to an x would be another possibility. When you have a very effective gadget that you really like it is very easy to end up overusing it. I did the same when I started using relays by continuing the relay auction on to slam even when switching to RKCB was better. It is even easier to do this on a place like BBO forums when you want to showcase your system gem to maximum advantage.

On the 1H hand that you mentioned these things actually come together too. I can actually exchnage more information on that hand by relaying all the way to slam but I know now that the RKCB route is actually better with this class of hand. So I tried to give the 'normal' auction even when it is tempting to showcase the system optimally.

It is very kind of you to say something nice about my system. It is nothing particularly original though, just symmetric relay based on fragments instead of shortages. That probably makes it technically assymmetric but the rules are so close that they are equivalent to all intents and purposes. For those readers that know symmetric relay the auctions should hopefully be reasonably logical. I always give the meanings if I post an auction from the system so that natural bidding readers can follow the information exchange too.

In a way relay auctions are the ultimate expression of the principle behind your 2S gadget too. Here you not only use the lowest available GF bid but the lowest available bid of any denomination to throw the extra hand types into, and in return have to reverse engineer the system to make that possible. The equivalent in the context of your 2S gadget would be to use 1S as the gadget and require all weaker 1m openings with 4 spades and less than 4 hearts to find an alternative opening bid. You could probably even do this but having a simple add-on is so much easier.

Just as a side note I wonder if it is not possible to adapt this over 1D - 1S by using 3C artificially. Clearly you are gaining less but since you already have the structure it is also not a big memory load. Say,

1D - 1S
3C! (GF, 1-suited or both minors) - 3D! (asks for clarification)
  3H! = 4+c (then 3S asks if 3 spades-->3N for no, cue bid for yes)
  3S! = long Di, 3s, no 4c
  3N! = long Di, no 3s, no 4c

Finally, you could complete the set with 1C - 1S - 3D although logically this could only show a GF 1-suiter. Then a 3NT rebid would be logically be a diamond spliter raise.

1C - 1S
3D! (GF, 1-suited) - 3H! (asks for clarification)
  3S! = 3s
  3N! = no 3s

Probably this is just a load of rubbish but seems to be possible. Whether it gains anything over 'Standard' is something I am not going to think about just now though.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

Thx, Zel,
I too appreciate your interest.
( My basic system is 2/1 GF ).
I also have posted schemes for the problematic auctions ( that you mentioned) of 1C - 1S and 1D - 1S where Opener is shy of a strong 2C open and doesn't have the right shape for a traditional SJS or Reverse ( and chooses NOT to make 2NT! as forcing and/or artificial).... but would like to make a relatively low-level GF rebid.

A) Let's first look at the 1C - 1S auction. I also looked at the 3D! jump-reverse [ first presented to me recently by Gerben ( mentar42 at rec.games.bridge )] as a possible articial bid ( ostensibly a splinter ) but I decided it took up too much "room" for the "sorting out" follow-ups, so I settled on the 2D! reverse as "maybe artificial" as the ONLY false reverse that I would use ( all others are natural ):

1C - 1S
2D! - ?? has the unique feature that Responder can bid the lowest possible Lebensohl rebid of 2H! to start a sign-off.
.....- 2H!(Leb)
??
2S = 4s, 18,19 balanced GF ( where Responder is offered a choice of games: 3NT or 4S )
2NT! = no 4s, but long Cl, GF
3C! = accepting Leb relay with NF natural 4d/5+c
3D! = ( haven't thot about this much but could be a big 5d/6c to decline the relay to 3C!)

- - - - - - - - - - - - - -
As for other rebids by Responder after Opener's 2D!, well they are conveniently forcing ( GF in fact )
according to accepted Lebensohl principles: 2S/2NT/3C or 3D.....
and I have follow-up for those also to "sort out" Opener's hand ( 4s or not; long Cl only; or natural Diam reverse ).
- - - - - - - - - - - - - -

That's all for now....more to come later....

[Zelandakh]

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2010-October-30, 07:48, said:

Thx, Zel,
I too appreciate your interest.
( My basic system is 2/1 GF ).
I also have posted schemes for the problematic auctions ( that you mentioned) of 1C - 1S and 1D - 1S where Opener is shy of a strong 2C open and doesn't have the right shape for a traditional SJS or Reverse ( and chooses NOT to make 2NT! as forcing and/or artificial).... but would like to make a relatively low-level GF rebid.

A) Let's first look at the 1C - 1S auction. I also looked at the 3D! jump-reverse [ first presented to me recently by Gerben ( mentar42 at rec.games.bridge )] as a possible articial bid ( ostensibly a splinter ) but I decided it took up too much "room" for the "sorting out" follow-ups, so I settled on the 2D! reverse as "maybe artificial" as the ONLY false reverse that I would use ( all others are natural ):

Using 2D artificially is of course the more common approach and entirely sensible. I do have one suggestion though. Your 2S bid is much more specific than your 3C bid. Thus I think you would find your auctions smoother if you reversed these 2 bids. It also has the advantage that if Responder has a total donkey he could potentially pass to get out in 2S. Having 3C showing 18-19 balanced with 4 spades is not a problem at all. In fact I would consider using 3S for this hand giving 3C for something else, perhaps 5+C, 4D, GF.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

Zel.....

I see you have another good idea.
Even if Opener does not use 2D! as "could be artificial", I like the suggestion of using 2S! over 2H!(Leb ) to show the natural reverse bid ( instead of 3C )... thus, allowing a pass by Responder having a "total donkey" w/spades.