[mtvesuvius]

Kind of a style question I suppose, but I have had a lot of disagreement on this subject with a lot of partners who I consider to be very good players.

Basically, in uncontested auctions such as:

1.
1H-2N
4H-5H

2.
1S-2C
2D-3S
4C-5S

3.
1D-1S
4C-4S
5S

4.
1S-2C
3S-5S

5.
1D-1S
3S-5S

6.
1S-2C
2D-3S
4H-5S

How would you treat 5M in each of these auctions? Do you consider this type of thing to be fairly common knowledge?
Also, these examples assume you are not playing Last Train and Lackwood.

No poll here... Make yourselves known, anonymous voters! This is my first OP since my vacation... I miss the old days of WTP, LOL etc

[TWO4BRIDGE]

1. Trump quality

2. Asking for at least 2nd Rnd Ctrl in Hts ( the unbid ) .

3. Ditto 2.

4. Trump quality

5. Ditto 4.

6. Ditto 5.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
1 unbid side suit >> asks 2nd Rnd Ctrl ( x or K x or an A...).

0,2, or 3 unbid side suits >> asks trump quality ( 2 of top 3 ).

[mtvesuvius]

The one thing that has always baffled me here is why they should be trump quality asks. If you don't have a void, you can Keycard, if you do have a void, you can bid exclusion... So it seems there is no need for them.

I usually like to treat the 0, 2 or 3 unbid side suit ones as just a general quantitative invitation to slam, is this a logical treatment or retarded? lol

Forums seem to have slowed down a bit

[Valardent]

How I wld treat such bids (subject is far from general knowledge) :

1. Quantitative (too good to pass, should show all ctrls but some lack of keycards)

2. Asking for ♥ ctrl (ppbly ♦shortness/void)

3. Asking for ♥ ctrl and "some" trump quality/length (if ♥ctrl is the only issue, opener could bid 5♣)

4. Asking for a 1-looser suit or better (unusual seq.; much space left on 3♠, 5♠ asking for redsuits ctrl is (nearly)impossible when opener shows good♠; with Kx xx xx AKQJxxx, responder could easely bid 4♣)

5. Long good spades, no outside ctrl (ppbly ♦shortness/void)

6. Quantitative (too good to bid 4♠)

[FrancesHinden]

mtvesuvius, on 2010-October-24, 07:33, said:

Forums seem to have slowed down a bit

Took me a while to get my ID back

[FrancesHinden]

mtvesuvius, on 2010-October-23, 19:51, said:

Kind of a style question I suppose, but I have had a lot of disagreement on this subject with a lot of partners who I consider to be very good players.

Basically, in uncontested auctions...how would you treat 5M

I play 5M the same (in some sense) in all of these auctions: it means "I have too good a hand to pass/sign-off and I have no more descriptive slam try available, do you have something extra over what you have shown so far?"

Usually this is neither asking for a control in a specific suit, nor asking for top trump honours. The former can usually be dealt with by cue-bidding, the latter by some form of keycard ask. If it is asking for trump quality, it is looking for more than just the AKQ (usually after partner has already shown a very good suit but you have a small singleton or void).

Looking at your example auctions, I'm not sure I'd ever have them, but here's an attempt:
1. This is just "do you like your hand?". A cue-bid instead would tend to imply worry about controls in one of the suits; this auction isn't worried about having two top losers but about whether there are twelve tricks

2. If anything, this must be looking for good trumps in context (cards such as the J10) because anything else can be solved by cue-bidding or keycard.

3. I know you signed off, but do you have anything extra?

4. Assuming 2C was game forcing, this is a very strange auction, but it sounds like "I have too much extra in the way of high cards to sign off, but nothing to cue bid" (a more likely version of this auction might be 2C - 2D - 2S - 3H - 3S - 5S)

5. I can't think of any hand that would bid like this.. but it still is "do you like your hand?"

6. Again, "do you have anything extra" - if responder was looking for a particular control, he can cuebid

[awm]

I think the old-fashioned style is that 5M asks for some specific thing, usually control of the unbid suit or trump quality. However, I think the better modern players are tending more towards Frances' approach where 5M is usually just a quantitative slam try. Cuebidding (and keycard ask) is a lot more developed now than it used to be, and most of the "missing a control in specific suit" or "worried about trump quality" type hands can be handled by such approaches (sometimes without even risking the five-level).

[Cascade]

mtvesuvius, on 2010-October-24, 07:33, said:

I usually like to treat the 0, 2 or 3 unbid side suit ones as just a general quantitative invitation to slam, is this a logical treatment or retarded? lol

Its probably retarded.

Its what I do.

Works well for this retard.

[Cascade]

We also play a raise with one unbid (cued) suit as invitational without a cue in that suit. That is partner requires both a control and extras to bid on. Whereas a further cue when we are obviously without control in a suit demands that partner bid slam if she controls the unbid suit.

I have also experimented with RKCB after having denied a control in a suit e.g. I need specifically two aces and a control in the unbid suit but partner signed off. I bid 4NT but partner must lie - show zero - without control in the unbid suit. This thought occurred to me after inviting a slam having denied a control and partner went on with a control and with extras but we were off two bullets. The story had a happy ending when the opponents did not cash.

[Mbodell]

I'd expect:

1. General try

2. Slam going hand but with two quick heart losers

3. Slam going hand but with two quick heart losers

4. Slam try with red problems (maybe Axx xx Jx AKQJxx?)

5. Slam try with rounded problems

6. General slam try

I think some of these depend a lot on inferences from your agreements. What is your cue bidding style? What are your jumps in general (fast arrival/picture)? Do you have other conventional bids (2nt/3nt/last train/kickback/etc.).

I think the only ones that are near universal are when there is 1 unbid suit or when there is 1 suit bid by the opponents.

[pooltuna]

Basically the question being asked looks like a do you have extras for your bidding rather than a trump quality ask. You could have checked trump quality in each case with RKC.

[Phil]

1, 5 and 6. Variations of "Small Slam force" - not forcing, bid slam with one high trump honor, something else with 2.

2. Definitely asks for a heart control.

3. Hmm...a load of extras. Has to be looking for a heart card.

4. I don't think I'd make this call here. 3♠ already shows a really good suit and I have a lot of ways to figure out red suit controls. I guess I would take it as 'if you like your hand', bid 6.

mtvesuvius, on 2010-October-23, 19:51, said:

1.
1H-2N
4H-5H

2.
1S-2C
2D-3S
4C-5S

3.
1D-1S
4C-4S
5S

4.
1S-2C
3S-5S

5.
1D-1S
3S-5S

6.
1S-2C
2D-3S
4H-5S

How would you treat 5M in each of these auctions? Do you consider this type of thing to be fairly common knowledge?
Also, these examples assume you are not playing Last Train and Lackwood.

No poll here... Make yourselves known, anonymous voters! This is my first OP since my vacation... I miss the old days of WTP, LOL etc

[TWO4BRIDGE]

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2010-October-24, 04:49, said:

1. Trump quality
1H-2N
4H-5H
Responder has a void somewhere... no room for Voidwood bid

2. Asking for at least 2nd Rnd Ctrl in Hts ( the unbid ) .
1S-2C
2D-3S
4C-5S
Probably shortness in partner's 2nd suit( ♦ ) and doesn't want to cuebid it.

3. Needs Ht Ctrl
1D-1S
4C-4S
5S
Alternatively, Opener could cue 5D instead, hopng you can cue 5H.

4. Trump quality
1S-2C
3S-5S
Has ♥-void and can't tolerate a "second step" reply ( 5NT = 1 key ) to 5H!-voidwood

5. Trump quality
1D-1S
3S-5S
Has Void in partner's opening suit ( ♦ ) and can't use 5D-jump as voidwood
0R similar to #4 w/ ♥-void

6. Trump quality
1S-2C
2D-3S
4H-5S
Has void in ♦ or ♥... no room for Voidwood.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
1 unbid side suit >> asks 2nd Rnd Ctrl ( x or K x or an A...).

0,2, or 3 unbid side suits >> asks trump quality ( 2 of top 3 ).

[manudude03]

1. Trump quality ask (2 of top 4*)
2. Asks for ♥ control (unusual auction though)
3. As 2.
4. Quantitative
5. TQA.
6. TQA.

*I like to play it as 2 of top 4 since RKC can handle top 3, but can land you in slams with a trump suit of say Kxxx vs Qxxx.

[awm]

Taking a look at auction two:

1♠ - 2♣
2♦ - 3♠
4♣ - .....

If I'm worried about a heart control, I can easily cuebid 4♦. This leaves hearts as the only suit we have not cuebid. Partner can then show a heart control via 4♥ or deny one by bidding 4♠ (if you play last train, the inferences may be modified slightly). Thus is seems odd for me to bid 5♠ to say "bid slam with a heart control" -- I could've looked for a heart control at a lower level quite easily. Jumping to 5♠ might lead to going down at the five-level (say we lack a heart control and suits break really badly), and also might cramp our hunt for a grand slam when opener has a real moose.

Taking a look at auction three:

1♦ - 1♠
4♣ - 4♠
5♠

Again, if I'm worried about a heart control I can always cuebid 5♣. Partner will bid 5♥ if he has a heart control (okay, maybe he will show a diamond control with 5♦, but then I can bid 5♠ over that and it's clear hearts were "the problem"). So again, it doesn't make sense for this sequence to be a pure "do you have a heart control" ask since I can accomplish that in a different way.

Making these calls quantitative asks (or a combination of quantitative asks / control asks) seems much more sensible.

[bucky]

mtvesuvius, on 2010-October-24, 07:33, said:

The one thing that has always baffled me here is why they should be trump quality asks. If you don't have a void, you can Keycard, if you do have a void, you can bid exclusion... So it seems there is no need for them.

I usually like to treat the 0, 2 or 3 unbid side suit ones as just a general quantitative invitation to slam, is this a logical treatment or retarded? lol

Forums seem to have slowed down a bit

Before the invention of RKC, you indeed need a bit to ask trump quality. Nowadays the need is not as pressing.

[Mbodell]

awm, on 2010-October-25, 15:41, said:

Taking a look at auction two:

1♠ - 2♣
2♦ - 3♠
4♣ - .....

If I'm worried about a heart control, I can easily cuebid 4♦.

It depends on your agreements. If you don't cue shortness in suits your partner shows then if you have a diamond void you may not want to cue 4♦ even though it isn't your main concern.