[jillybean]

Please vote and explain your choice.

[Stephen Tu]

Neither. (semi-)Natural + forcing.

"New minor forcing" typically only refers to auctions after 1nt rebid. Using 2d as wholly artificial force (usually in conjunction with playing 2h as non-forcing), is properly termed something else, "Bourke relay" perhaps.

[Siegmund]

The standard meaning for both 2D and 2H, natural and forcing, doesn't seem to be listed. The reason to play 2D artificial and forcing is so that 2H can be NF. Don't think I've ever met someone who played 2D NF here.

It's an uncomfortable auction no matter how you play it.

[jillybean]

2D, natural forcing is listed now.
I'm working through the differences in a potential new partnership and this is something that has come up.

[Free]

None of the above. I prefer 2♦ artificial and forcing, it doesn't mean I have 5♠. It's not the same as NMF.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

Agree with Sieggy...
only I call it "cheapest (bid)" new suit forcing ( may be artificial )-- in this case 2D -- after Opener's rebid of his minor.
This way 2H is NF.

The more problemic auction is:
1D - 1S
2D - ??

[Fluffy]

as siegmund said, this depends on the meaning of 2♥ if 2♥ is forcing then this is nat (seminat), forcing; if 2♥ is not forcing, this is just forcing.

[the hog]

Free, on 2010-October-22, 02:11, said:

None of the above. I prefer 2♦ artificial and forcing, it doesn't mean I have 5♠. It's not the same as NMF.

You need another choice. I agree with Frederick here.
Ron

[jillybean]

Free, on 2010-October-22, 02:11, said:

None of the above. I prefer 2♦ artificial and forcing, it doesn't mean I have 5♠. It's not the same as NMF.

If 2♦ is artificial and you don't have 5♠, what do you have, ♣ support?

[TWO4BRIDGE]

jillybean, on 2010-October-22, 07:29, said:

If 2♦ is artificial and you don't have 5♠, what do you have, ♣ support?

Since 2H is NF, Responder may have a GF 5s/4h hand or a GF hand with 4s and yes, Clubs or has a good hand but needs more info ( like a Ht-stop ) for NT..... similar options as in NMF only Opener has an unbalanced hand.

1C - 1S
2C - 2D!
2NT - 3C ( now is GF w/Cl )

...because if he just wanted to invite, Responder would just bid 3C over 2C.

[Free]

jillybean, on 2010-October-22, 07:29, said:

If 2♦ is artificial and you don't have 5♠, what do you have, ♣ support?

I didn't say I never have 5♠, I said that bidding 2♦ doesn't imply that I have 5♠.

I can have all sorts of hands actually. I can still have 5+♠, I can have ♦, I can have ♣ support, I can have a balanced slam try,...

[wyman]

I actually prefer 1m-1S; 2X-2H to be GF.
1m-2M can show 5S/4H const/inv.

This auction should still be a checkback, though, imo.

edit: I mean opener's priority should be to pattern out, first showing 3 card support for responder's major. Responder can have a range of hands, not all of which include 5+M.

[gwnn]

NMF can also have less than 5 in responder's major, it can still have the other minor, a GF raise of opener's minor, a balanced slam try, ...

[jillybean]

Thanks. I will find out more before we play tonight.

[mtvesuvius]

Just an artificial GF for me -- This is how to begin a Slammish auction with Clubs/Spades or looking for a red suit fit etc...

[peachy]

mtvesuvius, on 2010-October-22, 11:11, said:

Just an artificial GF for me -- This is how to begin a Slammish auction with Clubs/Spades or looking for a red suit fit etc...

It is forcing. Some play that it is NMF, just as if opener had rebid 1NT. In any case, the auction needs background information what 1C-1S-2C-3D and 1C-1S-2C-3C are. In any case, 2D is definitely forcing and can contain various hand types, which will be clarified later in the auction. 2H would be nonforcing though still not weak, because with weak hands, responder will settle for a reasonable 2C, knowing opener has six of them.

[jillybean]

My partner does play this as "NMF" with 2♥ not forcing. For me, I doubt that the benefit is worth the memory load. I have other things I'd rather add so we will have to talk more.

[jukmoi]

I play that 2♦ is artificial and sets up a GF tempo. Thus 3♣, 2NT and 3♠ are all invitational only. And 2♥ is nonforcing though I would never pass it without an clear agreement.

[Zelandakh]

You might find this link interesting reading if you are having the discussion in your partnership.

[mycroft]

I play it as "third suit forcing", which basically is NMF the old-fashioned way, without all the explicit agreements tacked on to it in the last 30 years. Therefore:
2D is ostensibly diamonds, but it is guaranteed forcing (as is 2H in my system); there may be times when partner has "no real bid, but wants to force" - and in that case, 2D is the "least lie".
So Natural and forcing, but he "shows but does not promise" diamonds. I realize it's a handwavy definition, but it works.