[ahydra]

Last night my partner opened 1NT (12-14) and I had

♠K
♥AQ9x
♦K9x
♣KQJxx

After using a bit of Stayman and finding out partner had spades but no hearts, I went 4♣ which partner, as we'd never met before, had no idea about. He bid 4NT and I tried one last time with 5NT but he still wouldn't bid slam. Afterwards he said "no reason to show the clubs, just bid 4NT quantitative".

Any reason for 4♣ to not be natural (we were playing Gerber, but only over NT bids)? Do you agree with my partner's suggested approach here? (Note it's MP, and 3♣ after response to stayman would have been weak) Also what do people play 1NT-2♣(stayman)-2M-4NT as? I guess that should be quantitative and no fit for the M, right?

Ian if you're reading this, no hard feelings, we did win after all just curious to get some different viewpoints!

ahydra

[kenrexford]

I am assuming that Stayman followed by 3♣ must have been passable in your methods.

As to 4♣, there are multiple reasons for it to not be natural. First, it could be a splinter in support fo spades. Had partner bid 2♥, and had your diamonds and spades been reversed, 4♦ would look right, correct?

Bidding clubs naturally seems right with this hand, but your methods seem to lack enough definition to enable that approach. I would suggest re-considering structure.

[Fluffy]

the standard ina storng NT context, and I beleive the same for weak NT context are 3♣ is natural and forcing, and 4♣ is splinter with fit in spades.

Anyway, there is many reasons to show clubs, Imagina partner having doubleton hearts or ♠AJxx, clubs provide extra tricks and are better slams, in fact if you play IMPs I think you should never play 6NT with this hand but 6♣ (or maybe 6♦ if partner really insists on doing so).

[ahydra]

Wow, how come I didn't remember splinters lol. ofc 4♣ should be a splinter on this auction, which is why we need 3♣ to be forcing, which in turn is why we need to play transfers to minors I'll mention it to all my future pick-up partners!

So in fact 4NT was RKC for spades, 5NT was 2keycards with a void

ahydra

[jonottawa]

Would never occur to me that a JUMP to 4♣ would be natural here. Either Gerber or splinter. Doing that to a pickup partner is just ...

On the other hand, if pard had 14 or a really good 13 he should have bid slam anyway. He already knows the auction makes no sense but should be able to discern through his partner's grunts and garbled communication that slam may be in the offing.

More interesting problem at IMPs. Does insisting on ♣ to rightside the contract (and often generate a favorable lead) make sense or is the risk of xx in ♣ too great?

[Cyberyeti]

ahydra, on Oct 1 2010, 12:19 PM, said:

Wow, how come I didn't remember splinters lol. ofc 4♣ should be a splinter on this auction, which is why we need 3♣ to be forcing, which in turn is why we need to play transfers to minors I'll mention it to all my future pick-up partners!

So in fact 4NT was RKC for spades, 5NT was 2keycards with a void

ahydra

We use 1N-2♣-2♠-3♥ as a minor suit enquiry, so even though 3♣ is to play, 4♣ is a splinter, we can bid 3♥ then follow up by bidding clubs unless partner shows 5 diamonds.

[ONEferBRID]

1NT Structure over Stayman:

1NT - 2C
2M - ??
.......3C/3D = Major misfit, 4oM/5+minor ( likewise over a 2D reply to Stayman)
( some--I believe most-- play this a forcing; others as non-forcing )
......... 3oM! = Major-fit, splinter somwhere; next step asks where
...........4C! = Major-fit, RKC Gerber for M
...........4D! = Major-fit, no shortness, slam invite
.......... 4NT = Quant., Major misfit, NT slam invite

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Note: The splinter option gets all 3 side-suits in play.
  You can't do this with a 4-level splinter bid.
  And, reserving 4C! for RKC Gerber and an 8 card fit allows you to sign-off in 4M when 2 key cards are missing. Or possibly the 5-level with 1 Ace as well as the trump Q missing.

[Zelandakh]

ONEferBRID, on Oct 1 2010, 07:52 PM, said:

1NT Structure over Stayman:

1NT - 2C
2M - ??
.......3C/3D = Major misfit, 4oM/5+minor ( likewise over a 2D reply to Stayman)
( some--I believe most-- play this a forcing; others as non-forcing )
......... 3oM! = Major-fit, splinter somwhere; next step asks where
...........4C! = Major-fit, RKC Gerber for M
...........4D! = Major-fit, no shortness, slam invite
.......... 4NT = Quant., Major misfit, NT slam invite

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Note: The splinter option gets all 3 side-suits in play.
  You can't do this with a 4-level splinter bid.
  And, reserving 4C! for RKC Gerber and an 8 card fit allows you to sign-off in 4M when 2 key cards are missing. Or possibly the 5-level with 1 Ace as well as the trump Q missing.

An alternative that I played before switching to Puppet...

1NT - 2C - 2S
2N/3S = INV
3C = puppet to 3D (I used Stayman as my route to a weak take-out in diamonds)
3D = minor suit Stayman
3H = good spade raise
4m/H = splinter

Here you would bid 3D asking partner to show a 4-card minor. You can still bid 4C after that to show a slam hand with 5 clubs and 4 hearts if partner does not cooperate with a 3H bid (showing 4 clubs).

Naturally the same structure can be played over 2H with 2S as MSS (effectively a Baron 2S) and 3D as the good raise and the the bonus of getting 2NT as something else such as a puppet to 3C). This structure is reasonably simple but I would suggest 4-way (or 5-way) transfers as the way to go.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

#1 assuming, you have discussed thei with , 4NT in the seq. 1NT - 2C;2M - 4NT
is quantitative, since you have a forcing raise with bidding 3 of the other major
#2 You have at most 32HCP, and at best a 8 card fit, so without extensive agreements,
I would simply sign of in 3NT.
#3 We play, that a 3C response in the seq. 1NT - 2C;2M - 3C as forcing, but this is
a matter of agreement.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Fluffy]

ahydra, on Oct 1 2010, 05:19 PM, said:

Wow, how come I didn't remember splinters lol. ofc 4♣ should be a splinter on this auction, which is why we need 3♣ to be forcing, which in turn is why we need to play transfers to minors I'll mention it to all my future pick-up partners!

So in fact 4NT was RKC for spades, 5NT was 2keycards with a void

ahydra

actually I think its better for 4NT to be quantitative with 4♥.

1NT-2♣
2♠-3♥

is a balanced slam try in spades, and you bid it before using KCBW.

[aguahombre]

Fluffy, on Oct 3 2010, 12:26 PM, said:

ahydra, on Oct 1 2010, 05:19 PM, said:

Wow, how come I didn't remember splinters lol. ofc 4♣ should be a splinter on this auction, which is why we need 3♣ to be forcing, which in turn is why we need to play transfers to minors I'll mention it to all my future pick-up partners!

So in fact 4NT was RKC for spades, 5NT was 2keycards with a void

ahydra

actually I think its better for 4NT to be quantitative with 4♥.

1NT-2♣
2♠-3♥

is a balanced slam try in spades, and you bid it before using KCBW.

yep

[Free]

A pretty basic standard approach after stayman and response is:
3m = 4OM, 5+m, GF
3OM = sets M as trumps, usually pretty balanced
3M = invite
4m = splinter with fit M

You can simply rebid 3♣ showing your hand and staying below 3NT.