[BrianEDuran]

Hi

For the most part I play 10-13 or 12-14 NTs, and couldn't change now. But like any agreement, there are some problems. With most partners we have discussed that 1m-1M; 3M might be a 17 count and balanced. Something like:
♠KJ
♥AQxx
♦Kxx
♣KJxx

This is ofcourse not ideal, but bidding 2H isn't great either. Some times there might even be a double on you left, like 1m-(X)-1M-p;

We have talked about 1m-(p)-1M-(X); where XX showes a 15-17 4 card support or 18+, and 1NT denies 4 card support, vs. playing support redoubles but never acted on it.

Do people have advice on handelling this hands? Maybe even a convention?

thanks brian

[Free]

play 4-card Majors and open with your Major

[inquiry]

Misho and I have given up a natural 2NT rebid by opener... WE play 1m-(any)-1M-(and)-2NT as a great raise.. think of it as Jacoby 2NT by opener. :-)

We use articifical continuations after this as well.. We bid 3♣ as no game interest (think minimum hand) or no slam interest (the weakest response). 3♦ is game going, modest on slam ambition. 3♥ (regardless of what the major is), asking opener for splinter... and other bids left up to you and your partner...

This allows us to use 1m-1M-3M to be very narrowly defined which is good becasue partner has to pass or bid game. With the big balanced hand, we play nmf by opener, so he can bid 2om then 2NT. This has worked very well, and allows 1m-1M-4M to be definded differently than normal as well (monster two suiter, control poor).. etc.

Ben

[luke warm]

1m/1M/2M is either 15-17 with 4 card support or 4/5 in M and m.. since i didn't open 1nt, it's probably 1453 or 3415 or something (if 11-14)... so 1m/1M/3m would be 18 or 19 (to me)

i don't like giving up 1m/1M/2nt but i do like ben/misho reverse jacoby treatment... food for thought

oh, what free said about opening 4M... i've thought on that, and think it's *very* playable, moreso when the M is hearts

[1eyedjack]

You have certainly hit upon the greatest weak point of the weak 1N methods, in my opinion.

I have sometimes wondered about concealing the 4 card support and rebidding 1NT (15-17). This seems to be complete anathema to those to whom I have suggested it, so I have no empirical experience on which to judge it. You appear to be in the same position as those who opened a strong 1NT and who do not even know about the fit.

[luke warm]

hi jack.. assuming you're talking to me above, i wouldn't suppress my heart support... but my 2H bid would be made on 2 hand types... the weakish 11-13 or so 1435 hand or that one or 2452 dist in the 15-17 range

i tend to open 1nt when 4522, but i'm thinking of opening the 4 hearts hand 1H ... no problem with 4=2=5=2 or 4=2=2=5, i open 1C regardless... i always have a rebid

if i jumped to 3H, you can be sure i'm 17+ - 19-

[mikestar]

George Rosencranz did an extensive computer study of this situation and advocates raising to 3M with 6+ controls and supressing the support and bidding 1N with 5 or less. (From Bid to Win, Play for Pleasure)

[1eyedjack]

Do you happen to know if he factored in the success rate of a simple raise to 2M in the comparison?

[jtfanclub]

inquiry, on Aug 12 2004, 01:26 PM, said:

Misho and I have given up a natural 2NT rebid by opener... WE play 1m-(any)-1M-(and)-2NT as a great raise.. think of it as Jacoby 2NT by opener. :-)

If you can't stand to lose your 2NT bid, you can use 2 of the other major (2♥ over 1♠, 2♠ over 1♥) to show a hand just short of bidding game with at least 3 card support. Inquiry's system probably works better, though.

[bearmum]

Free, on Aug 13 2004, 07:13 AM, said:

play 4-card Majors and open with your Major 

sounds like a good idea IF playing weak NT

[MickyB]

bearmum, on Aug 13 2004, 10:27 AM, said:

Free, on Aug 13 2004, 07:13 AM, said:

play 4-card Majors and open with your Major 

sounds like a good idea IF playing weak NT

I disagree - It sounds like a good idea if playing strong NT, but not if playing weak NT. Two reasons -

Firstly, 4 card majors gives you a disadvantage on hands with 5 cards in a major. If you are playing strong NT, then you get to open 4 card majors fairly often and can gain on these hands. Playing weak NT, you aren't opening them frequently enough.

Secondly, it is debatable whether opening 1M on such hands is an advantage anyway, as there is less reason to preempt the opponents. Instead you are preempting yourself by opening 1M without having got your strength across, forcing you into playing light 2/1s.

Having said that, it is a simpler system to get working than weak NT 5cM. Wk+5 really needs Walsh (if you bid 1♣:1♦, 1♥ on strong NTs then you haven't got your strength across, this sequence is best played as promising an unbalanced hand).

Back to the original question - This is not the weak point of Weak NTs, it is the strong point, as the weakest hand you could have in support of partner would be a 5422 12 count, which is worth a couple of points more than a 4333 12 count, thus raises can show a much stronger hand than when playing strong NT. On this hand it is marginal between a raise to 2M, showing about 14-17 in support, or a raise to 3M.

[badderzboy]

Playing 4 card majors and weak NT. I had virtually the same hand in a f2f session and missed a 4-4 Heart fit. My partner was 5-4 in hearts and spades with 12 pts...

The bidding went 1C-1S-2NT-3NT. One could bid 3H over 2NT but is it forcing or weak - what do u do with this hand ♠Axxxx ♥ Jxxx ♦xx ♣ xx pass 2NT?

I bid 4 card suits up the line so a reverse will promise 5-4 or better although with this hand the bidding with Free's suggestion would go 1H-1S-2NT-4H although my partner would expect a 4-3-3-3 hand shape here and might bid 4S assuming a 5-3 fit?

♠KJ
♥AQxx
♦Kxx
♣KJxx

My partner held

♠AQxxx
♥Kxxx
♦QJ
♣xx

On this hand it's a good argument for NMF after the auction 1C-1S-2NT(17/18) but is this a good idea as 3D by responder would be NMF and not allow a stopper showing/asking bid?

If playing NMF I bid 3H and partner would bid 4H.

If you adopt 1NT as 15-18 as per Klinger and using checkback then the auction would be 1C-1S-1NT(15-18)-2C*(game invite)-3H(17/18 with 4Hearts and 4Clubs so 3-2 in S/C's) - 4H.

Playing ACOL I would interested in your expert comments on the +/-'s of the NMF vs natural vs Checkback approach?

Thanks

Steve

[hrothgar]

badderzboy, on Aug 13 2004, 04:40 PM, said:

Playing 4 card majors and weak NT. I had virtually the same hand in a f2f session and missed a 4-4 Heart fit. My partner was 5-4 in hearts and spades with 12 pts...

The bidding went 1C-1S-2NT-3NT. One could bid 3H over 2NT but is it forcing or weak - what do u do with this hand ♠Axxxx ♥ Jxxx ♦xx ♣ xx pass 2NT?

Comment the first: The 2NT rebid is an ... interesting choice of bids.
Playing a 12-14 NT opening, this is an easy 1NT rebid.

Second comment: 4 card major systems lose much of their appeal if you're opening 1C with a 2=4=3=4 shape. Bite the bullet and open 1H. Life gets a LOT easier.

[inquiry]

badderzboy, on Aug 13 2004, 09:40 AM, said:

Playing 4 card majors and weak NT. I had virtually the same hand in a f2f session and missed a 4-4 Heart fit. My partner was 5-4 in hearts and spades with 12 pts...

The bidding went 1C-1S-2NT-3NT. One could bid 3H over 2NT but is it forcing or weak - what do u do with this hand ♠Axxxx ♥ Jxxx ♦xx ♣ xx pass 2NT?

Opener's hand is an easy 1NT rebid playing 12-14 NT. Now xyz convention (2♣ signoff in diamonds or almost any game invite, with 2♦ as any almost game force), would solve your problem.

Since you are worried about partner holding 5-4-x-y and weak, you might want to adopt REVERSE FLANNERY by responder. Playing reverse flannery by responder (RFR), 1m-2H shows....

a hand with five spades and four or five hearts, minimum responding values (say about 5-8 HCP).

This will mean that 1m-1S-2NT-2H or 1m-1S-1NT-2H elimates these hands.

This also allows a one-spade response followed by a jump shift to three hearts on the second round to be invitational, showing 5-5 distribution or better, because a one spade followed by 2H is forcing for one round showing a minimum of 9 HCP and no upper limit. A three-heart rebid on the third round is forcing to game... due to the lack of initial jump to 3H.

RFR works well with weak notrump. And also works well with Misho and my 2NT jump rebid showing fit and new minor by responder forcing.. becasue now 1m-1S-2om-2H is a hand better than the RFR bid.

Ben

[1eyedjack]

Badderzboy, you seem to imply that the choice is between 15-16 and 15-18 as choice of ranges of the 1N rebid. There is a sizeable population who go for 15-17, which would also fit that hand.

The 15-16 range gains you a bit when you can play in 1NT when others make a game try (declined) opposite a possible 17 count. There is certainly something to be said for eliminating the need for an invitational sequence as responder, and 17 point hands are rather less frequent so you increase your accuracy on the more frequent 15-16 hands. Having said that, although in classical Acol the 1NT rebid showed 15-16 this has definitely lost popularity over the years in favour of a slightly wider range, probably because (a) there is room to invite and (b) it eases the strain on your 2NT rebid continuations if the 2NT rebid is effectively GF and ( c) the risk of getting too high with 17 opposite a minimum is significant if you do not rebid 1NT on these hands.

I would not be unhappy about playing in 3NT on the hand quoted, but that is not really the point. I would not worry about having a system to cope with the very weak 5-4-?-? hand. You have little enough bidding space to deal with the other hands. There are those who have weak escape mechanisms after a 2NT rebid but personally I ditch those as well - have all continuations GF. In principle you could theoretically pass the 2N rebid, which might risk missing a Heart fit.

Just my opinion. Anyway, once the continuations to 2N rebid are GF (even if the 2N rebid itself is not) then it opens up a whole host of possibilities. I tend not to play any of the 3 options that you mentioned, but between those 3 there is probably not a lot to choose.

[mikestar]

1eyedjack, on Aug 12 2004, 11:47 PM, said:

Do you happen to know if he factored in the success rate of a simple raise to 2M in the comparison?

He did not report doing so. Might be worth factoring in the possiblilty and doing an extensive study. I suspect that 2M would lead to too many missed games. The 3M issue is not when partner accepts--there will ususally be a reasonable play for game even if not as good as opposite an unbalanced hand, but that 3M often goes down when the invitation is declined.

[MickyB]

hrothgar, on Aug 13 2004, 02:58 PM, said:

Second comment:  4 card major systems lose much of their appeal if you're opening 1C with a 2=4=3=4 shape.  Bite the bullet and open 1H.  Life gets a LOT easier.

Agreed. IMO this method combines the disadvantages of 4 card majors with the disadvantages of 5 card majors, with few of the benefits of either. A few people have started to call this 'Four Card Minors' in an attempt to avoid confusion.