[luke warm]

jtfanclub, on Aug 13 2004, 06:22 AM, said:

Let's say you have....
♠xx
♥KTxxxx
♦Txx
♣Kx

Bidding has gone 1♦ P 1♠ to you.

What would you bid?

i don't really understand what this has to do with the problem, but fwiw i pass this... i have the worst possible diamonds, and pard's spade honors, assuming he has any, are dead.. what's the vulnerability? i think it doesn't much matter, if i'm doubled at 3H, the only way it can conceivably be good is if they are vul and we aren't and they miss something in their haste to gut me

[Chamaco]

inquiry, on Aug 13 2004, 10:31 PM, said:

Hope that helps give you something to think about even if in the long run you disagree with me.

Ben

All the hints are useful, Ben.

All I was saying in my choice to start with a double was: I will raise pard, but I will do it showing a delayed preference rather than a direct raise, to avoid an advance sacrifice by pd if he has extra distribution.

If I give a weak raise, pard may still consider a sacrifice even if my raise is weak, if he has extra distribution to allow it.

The point is that I want to make surre we do not play 4H unless pard has a really distributional hand

If I start with a double, I expect the following cases:

1) pard leaves the double in playing me for 8+ hcp, 2 cards in H and 4 cards in clubs. I think this should not be a disaster (although that may occur, occasionally).
And in any case, given my shape, I rate the chances for pard to leave the double in close to 0.01%

2) pard rebids his suit. I will happily pass 3H.

3) pard bids clubs (the suit shown by my responsive double). In this case I will give a preference to hearts.
Pard will bid then 4H only if he really has extras in distribution or strength.


What I am saying is that in all these scenarios we will play 3H. Pard will decide to bid 4H if he has the hand to bid it opposite a balanced hand (= he should have a high ODR to compensate my low ODR).

I do not think giving a delayed raise means slapping partner as Ron says: in my opinion it means raising him telling him that the raise is not only bad, but has a really low ODR.
The direct raise does not give that piece of info: I mean if my pard raises me to 3H, everytime I have extra distribution and vuln is not unfav., I consider raising as advance sacrifice.
I want to avoid this, and I try to ease my pard's choice by dopubling and later giving a weak preference.

Is my thinking so terrible ?

[luke warm]

inquiry, on Aug 12 2004, 05:28 PM, said:

First, redefine 3♣ as fit non jump. It is impossible you could decide to bid clubs  now having passed over 1♦ without a heart fit. And if you have good clubs and modest heart support where a natural 3♣ might make sense, you could use snap dragon dbl. Of course, your hand is not suitable for 3♣ bid as fit non-jump or anything else.

I would save 2NT for a hand with four trumps, so that bid is out.

I would define double here as snapdragon (good clubs tolerence for  hearts), and so that is out as well.

I would define 3♦ as a mixed raise. After partners "brave" sandwich 2♥ bid, I like my heart suit, I like the locaction and size of my diamond cards (even the nine very likley is working). Three card support here is good enough for the 3♦ bid. But sadly, while I would like to bid 3♦ to show this hand... mixed raise with defensive values, the hand just isn't quite strong enough for this bid. Change the club J to King I would bid 3♦, probably if it was the Queen instead of the jack too, and if feeling frisky if I had CLUB JTx instead of Jxx.. 

So the option is pass and 3♥. On this hand, I would raise to 3♥ based on lott.. I fully expect they have an 8 card spade fit and we have a 9 card heart fit. I hope they don't double... and I hope to get a shot at 3 or 4 ♠.

Ben

i was just using the choices he gave me... actually, 3C and 3H should be forcing, the way i like to play (and 3C should show heart tolerance)... and 2nt should be gb... on this hand, i can't force anything, so i'm bidding 2nt and over the 3c bid (if it gets there) i'll bid 3H

if i want to force in hearts, say a decent hand with 4 card support, i cuebid 3D... the double should show clubs so i can't see making that bid on this hand

[the hog]

Another reason Ben is correct on this one -
give pd the following
x
AKTxxx
xxx
AQT

You have decent chances for game.

[inquiry]

Chamaco, on Aug 13 2004, 07:00 PM, said:

inquiry, on Aug 13 2004, 10:31 PM, said:

Hope that helps give you something to think about even if in the long run you disagree with me.

Ben

All the hints are useful, Ben.

All I was saying in my choice to start with a double was: I will raise pard, but I will do it showing a delayed preference rather than a direct raise, to avoid an advance sacrifice by pd if he has extra distribution.

If I give a weak raise, pard may still consider a sacrifice even if my raise is weak, if he has extra distribution to allow it.

The point is that I want to make surre we do not play 4H unless pard has a really distributional hand

If I start with a double, I expect the following cases:

1) pard leaves the double in playing me for 8+ hcp, 2 cards in H and 4 cards in clubs. I think this should not be a disaster (although that may occur, occasionally).
And in any case, given my shape, I rate the chances for pard to leave the double in close to 0.01%

2) pard rebids his suit. I will happily pass 3H.

3) pard bids clubs (the suit shown by my responsive double). In this case I will give a preference to hearts.
Pard will bid then 4H only if he really has extras in distribution or strength.


What I am saying is that in all these scenarios we will play 3H. Pard will decide to bid 4H if he has the hand to bid it opposite a balanced hand (= he should have a high ODR to compensate my low ODR).

I do not think giving a delayed raise means slapping partner as Ron says: in my opinion it means raising him telling him that the raise is not only bad, but has a really low ODR.
The direct raise does not give that piece of info: I mean if my pard raises me to 3H, everytime I have extra distribution and vuln is not unfav., I consider raising as advance sacrifice.
I want to avoid this, and I try to ease my pard's choice by dopubling and later giving a weak preference.

Is my thinking so terrible ?

There is not a lot wrong with your apporach... yhou are trying to raise to three hearts instead of letting them play 2S, and at matchpoints that is what is importatn with this hand. I thought your attack on support with support and talking about mentors suggested you favored pass.

Yoiur option number one.. partner passing your double will not happen unless WEST psyched 1♠, so forget about that. And yes, if partner bids 3♥ you will pass (altougth as you pass, you will be somewhat worreid about missing game), and if partner bids 3C you will correct to 3H. Now, rather this is trronger than an immediate raise to 3H or weaker is a matter of style.

My concern about double is that partner will play me for more. Four clubs is not enough for htis double, as you force partner to bid at the three level, 6 clubs ar emore likely (especially if it doesn not promise a heart tolerance). So if the bidding goes...

-- --- -- 1C
Ps 1S 2H 2S
X- 3S ?

Are you worried your partner might bid 4C? Even if WEST passed, partner might try 4C to show Extras, or a cue-bid of 3S to show his void. This is the worry here....

As for if you raise partner. After a 2/1 sandwich bid, he knows you are playing him for 6 hearts, so 6 hearts will not be enough to get him to bid 4♥. And if he has seven hearts and a spade void, who knows four hearts rates to make perhaps, buecause if he was seven hearts an no minor cards, he would have preemted earlier.

I expect partner to pass my 3♥ and to pass their 3♠ unless he expects to make 4♥ because he knows, that I know, he has six trumps. With seven hearts, he might bid again. But if everytime you raise to the limit, your partner then pushes the go button and bids again, he will shoon have to find another pratern, or you will have to stop making the correct bid because you know your partner is a mastermind.

Ben

[Chamaco]

inquiry, on Aug 14 2004, 12:23 AM, said:

My concern about double is that partner will play me for more. Four clubs is not enough for htis double, as you force partner to bid at the three level, 6 clubs ar emore likely (especially if it doesn not promise a heart tolerance).

--- cut ---

As for if you raise partner. After a 2/1 sandwich bid, he knows you are playing him for 6 hearts, so 6 hearts will not be enough to get him to bid 4♥.

Thx a lot Ben, these two were the pieces of information that were not quite clear to me.

1) I was playing Dbl as "cardshowing" 8+, with only some tolerance guaranteed for clubs, and not as long clubs.
I suppose this is more a subject for ptship agreement

2) more importantly, I igored that the most reasonable requirement for a sandwich 2H was a 6 bagger.


Thanlks again, these discussions are always VERY helpful !

[pclayton]

Jlall, on Aug 22 2004, 12:43 AM, said:

you want to pass w/w at MP? lol..lets consider all cases and assume pard rates to have 5.7 hearts, and the opps have 8 spades (16.7 trumps before adjustments).

2S makes and 3H is down 1 (16 total trumps)...3H is right
2S makes and 3H is down 2 AND they dont double (15 trumps)...3H is right
2S is down 1 and 3H makes (16 total trumps)...3H is right
2S is down 2 and 3H makes (15 total trumps)...3H is right
2S is down 1 and 3H is down 1 (15 total trumps)...pass is right
2S makes 3H is down 2 and they double (15 trumps)...pass is right.. what is the likelihood they can double us and beat it 2? trumps will almost certainly be 4-1 offisde. BUT, if trumps are 4-1 it will be RHO that has 4, which gives lho a stiff. He will often bid in front of his partner (3S) with a stiff heart. if lho has 4 hearts, he also has 5 spades, which gives them 9 trumps. also a double by LHO will likely be "maximal".
WHENEVER WE PUSH THEM TO 3S...3H is right...remember the opps are eager to bid white/white at MP, especially if they think we have NINE hearts.

This is all theory. In practice, 3H will work even better. 2S is a hard contract to defend, and pard may make a poor lead, or you may not find the best defense. similarly, against 3H they may make the wrong lead or misdefend. Declarer has an advantage over the defense in low level partscores. Support with support ESPECIALLY at MP w/w...it pays to bid, and passing aims at a very very small target

Uncharacteristically I have sat quiet throughout most of this discussion. I think Ben's estimate of 6.3 hearts in pard's hands is really optimistic. Justin's mark of 5.7 seems more accurate to me, and it might be lower than that. When pard holds the stiff spade, and WE KNOW HE DOES, he will strain to get involved over 1♠ with just about any reason to, if only to take the pressure off us in the balance chair. If pard holds the void, reopening will be automatic, but so will the opponents decision to take the push to 3. Furthermore, when pard holds six, the hand frequently becomes a direct 3♥ call, especially holding a stiff spade.

The opponents will frequently crack 3♥ if they believe 2♠ is making and 3♠ isn't, if only to try to win the board back.

Initially, my gut tells me that passing is correct, but let look at a few example hands:

Scoring: MP

---

Looks like 140 our way, assuming the north hand gets tapped 3 times. +50 in 2 spades. 16 trump and 16 total tricks.

Scoring: MP

---

2♠ is getting pummeled, likely -2. I think a reopening dbl with this shape and honor dispersion is mandatory by North. 140 in 3 hearts. 17 trump but only 15 tricks.

Scoring: MP

---

A likely +50 in 2♠. 3♥ depends on finding the 10♣. Pard might reopen over 2♠, but I don't think its automatic either. 16 trump, 15 or 16 tricks.

Scoring: MP

---

2♠ may or not be making with best defense. 3♥ is -1. 17 trump, 15 or 16 tricks. I would not mind a 3♥ call by pard in the sandwich seat.

Note that in every single example the total tricks were equal to, 1 or 2 less than the total trump. The horrible ODR in the South hand should warn of this condition.

What does these hands prove? Its hard to tell what can happen on any given day, but I think its clear that the decision is a lot closer than some believe. I'm still passing, but I have more sympathy for 3♥ after looking at these hands.