[raist]

KTxx QTxx xx Axx

all red bidding goes

(1D)-1S-(dbl)

what do you bid with this?
do you show a sound raise (by cuebidding diamonds or bidding 2H as a transfer whichever your method is) or a mixed raise (whichever your method is)?
why?

3S right away is pre emptive so that's out

and how high do you intend to compete if partner passes hereafter?
3S?

[whereagles]

There's a bid in the literature for this: 3♦, mixed raise. Shows 4 trumps and a 6-9 hand with mild defensive values. Right about what you have.

Another common gadget is 2NT, showing an invite or better hand with 4 trumps. You could also stretch this elegant hand to 2NT.

Lacking any of those gadgets, I guess I'd cue + go all the way to 3♠, on my own if necessary.

[raist]

yes i know the hand is between either a sound raise or a mixed raise immediately to the 3 level

what i'm interested in is with such a hand, which is the more descriptive bid?

probably not all hands with 4 trumps and 6-9 hcp is worth a direct raise to the 3 level
(unless you are a strict adherent of the Law)
sometimes it may be better to make a sound raise first. and then compete further

a mixed raise may be more appropriate on more offensive hands whereas this hand is a good all-round hand, even on defence

[peachy]

I prefer some shape in a mixed raise. This is a good single raise of an overcall, a combo of both offense and defense, I cuebid to show it.

[fromageGB]

raist, on Sep 19 2010, 08:42 PM, said:

probably not all hands with 4 trumps and 6-9 hcp is worth a direct raise to the 3 level (unless you are a strict adherent of the Law)
sometimes it may be better to make a sound raise first. and then compete further

I'd go along with this. While I am happy to go to 3♠ in competition, at red on this hand I am happy to play in 2 if I can. So for me, a good 3 card raise, 2♥ transfer to spades. (2NT would be an invitational 3 card raise, and 2♠ a preemptive 3 card raise.)

I will certainly bid 3♠ over 3♦.

[jdonn]

Definitely too good for a mixed raise, it's easily a limit raise however you show one here.

[hanp]

Mixed raise for me. I like my invites to be better than this, especially opposite an overcall.

[jdonn]

hanp, on Sep 19 2010, 03:18 PM, said:

Mixed raise for me. I like my invites to be better than this, especially opposite an overcall.

That's when I really think you should be allowed to make limit raises lighter. It has a good effect on the opponents when you sound strong, and for many people you can make a cuebid and not go beyond the 2 level anyway.

[hanp]

Maybe you should play that 2NT is preemptive, in the hope that they don't ask and are impressed by the values you've shown.

[cherdanno]

jdonn, on Sep 19 2010, 03:45 PM, said:

hanp, on Sep 19 2010, 03:18 PM, said:

Mixed raise for me. I like my invites to be better than this, especially opposite an overcall.

That's when I really think you should be allowed to make limit raises lighter. It has a good effect on the opponents when you sound strong, and for many people you can make a cuebid and not go beyond the 2 level anyway.

And I thought it's a disadvantage rather than an advantage that the 2D limit raise doesn't take up room with this hand.

[655321]

4 card mixed raise for me. I don't like to make a simple cue raise with this sort of hand when knowing about the 4th trump makes such a difference to partner's evaluation.

[JLOGIC]

655321, on Sep 19 2010, 06:06 PM, said:

4 card mixed raise for me.  I don't like to make a simple cue raise with this sort of hand when knowing about the 4th trump makes such a difference to partner's evaluation.

What if you played 2N showed a 4 card limit raise? I think this should be pretty standard since you would XX with a natural 2N bid (if such a thing as a natural 2N bid exists here).

I agree with jdonn that it's too good for a mixed raise, and I agree with 655321 that we would like to show our 4th trump immediately and I agree with cherdano that we'd also like to preempt them a bit. Seems like using 2N which is useless as a natural bid lets us show our values while also preempting/showing our 4th trump at the same time.

[655321]

JLOGIC, on Sep 19 2010, 06:12 PM, said:

What if you played 2N showed a 4 card limit raise?

I could easily be sold on a limit raise instead of mixed raise. I guess it partly depends how strong a preemptive 3♠ can be. If a preemptive raise is less than 6 points then this hand does look too strong for a mixed raise, if a preemptive raise can be up to 6 or 7 when we are vulnerable then I don't mind the mixed raise.

[aguahombre]

655321, on Sep 19 2010, 05:37 PM, said:

I could easily be sold on a limit raise instead of mixed raise.

So close. Switching the major suit honors around would make it a LR instead of a mixed IMO. Or maybe the same hand, but a pass by RHO instead of showing his hearts and a bit of strength would do it.

[Siegmund]

Mixed for me.

In a vacuum it's close to being good enough for a limit raise (though, to be honest, its the tiniest bit short of what I want to have for a limit raise of an opening); but QTxx behind the negative doubler says "defend" to me, so I am going out of my way to avoid over-exciting partner.

[hanp]

What do people think about using 2NT, 3D, 3H and 3S all for 4-card raises, the lower the better? Is this overkill?

[mich-b]

Mixed raised for me , partly because he has room to invite by bidding 3♥ , and then I can accept. If the mixed raised happened to be just below our suit , I would be more likely to show this as invite.

[aguahombre]

hanp, on Sep 20 2010, 12:40 AM, said:

What do people think about using 2NT, 3D, 3H and 3S all for 4-card raises, the lower the better? Is this overkill?

The Bergen people are used to it without competition

Even though I think Bergen raises of opening bids replace too many things, on THIS auction (advancing an overcall after a neg double), it is o.k. And you also have three 3-card raises.

[Free]

My choice is mixed raise. I don't have anything to really upgrade my hand to an invite.

Note however, that my invite would show 4+♠ (bidding 2NT). 2♦ only shows a 3 card support. If you don't have the possibility to show the difference between 3 or 4 card invite, then I might be more convinced an invite is right.

[raist]

hanp, on Sep 20 2010, 01:40 AM, said:

What do people think about using 2NT, 3D, 3H and 3S all for 4-card raises, the lower the better? Is this overkill?

i use all jump shifts as FIT JUMPS
EXCEPT when it is a jump shift to 3M-1, then it is a mixed raise (giving up the fit jump for that particular bid)

i was sold on fit jumps by the people who wrote "partnership bidding at bridge"
although it seldom comes up