[JanM]

I know that asking people to stay on topic may not be effective, but I'm posing this poll in an attempt to learn the answer to the simple question of whether people are aware of the rules, not to discuss whether the rules are sensible.

In WBF events, multi 2♦ and 2♣ showing an undisclosed Major are expressly exempted from treatment as Brown Sticker Bids (BS bids are allowed only in the Bermuda Bowl, Venice Cup & Mind Sports Games). Unlike in ACBLand, people who play multi do not have to provide a recommended defense. However, the opponents of a pair who use multi are allowed to refer to their own written defense during the auction. I am interested in whether most players know that they can bring a written defense to multi with them and refer to it during a multi auction.

Sorry about the lack of suit symbols in the question - I forgot you need 2 letters to get a suit symbol, and that isn't editable (or I can't figure out how).

[Edıt - do not worry, symbols do not work ın poll questıons anyway. Gerardo]

This post has been edited by Gerardo: 2010-September-20, 04:44

[Gerben42]

I've never heard of this rule, nor have I ever seen any written defenses to Multi at the table. I think you will get many more similar answers, as everyone seems to know that written defenses are an ACBL-only policy.

Where is this written?

[kfay]

Known, and appreciated!!!

[JanM]

Gerben42, on Sep 19 2010, 09:30 AM, said:

I've never heard of this rule, nor have I ever seen any written defenses to Multi at the table. I think you will get many more similar answers, as everyone seems to know that written defenses are an ACBL-only policy.

Where is this written?

WBF Systems Policy:

"EXCEPTION: A two level opening bid in a minor showing a weak two in either major, whether with or without the option of strong hand types, as described in the WBF Conventions Booklet. Defensive measures are permitted for opponents as in 6 below."

6 below:

"A pair may prepare written defences against the 'Brown Sticker' elements of any system. Such defences will have to be given to the opponents (two clearly legible copies) at an appropriate time and place prior to the start of that segment, to be specified in the Conditions of Contest. Written defences against Brown Sticker conventions are deemed to be part of the opponents’ system card."

I asked the question because I had the feeling that this rule is not commonly known - I'm wondering whether perhaps it should be more widely publicized (not sure how).

[hrothgar]

JanM, on Sep 19 2010, 07:21 PM, said:

In WBF events, multi 2♦ and 2♣ showing an undisclosed Major are expressly exempted from treatment as Brown Sticker Bids (BS bids are allowed only in the Bermuda Bowl, Venice Cup & Mind Sports Games). Unlike in ACBLand, people who play multi do not have to provide a recommended defense. However, the opponents of a pair who use multi are allowed to refer to their own written defense during the auction. I am interested in whether most players know that they can bring a written defense to multi with them and refer to it during a multi auction.

Sorry about the lack of suit symbols in the question - I forgot you need 2 letters to get a suit symbol, and that isn't editable (or I can't figure out how).

Yes

A couple months back, there looked to be a chance that I could attend the WBF event in Philly.

I read the WBF system policy, and low and behold, the page that describes said policy clearly states

Quote

2.4 Brown Sticker Conventions and Treatments
The following conventions or treatments are categorised as 'Brown Sticker':
a)  Any opening bid of two clubs through three spades that:
  i)  could be weak (may by agreement be made with values below average strength) AND
  ii)  does not promise at least four cards in a known suit.
      EXCEPTION: The bid always shows at least four cards in a known suit if it is weak. If the bid does not show a known four card suit it must show a hand a king or more over average strength. (Explanation: Where all the weak meanings show at least four cards in one known suit, and the strong meanings show a hand with a king or more above average strength, it is not a Brown Sticker Convention.)
      EXCEPTION: A two level opening bid in a minor showing a weak two in either major, whether with or without the option of strong hand types, as described in the WBF Conventions Booklet. Defensive measures are permitted for opponents as in 6 below.

[hrothgar]

JanM, on Sep 19 2010, 07:56 PM, said:

I asked the question because I had the feeling that this rule is not commonly known - I'm wondering whether perhaps it should be more widely publicized (not sure how).

Think of it as evolution in action...

People who bother to read the rules will accrue a benefit.
I fail to see the problem.

[paulg]

Scotland knows because I adopted the same rule for our trials. Only one pair used notes though as we are all familiar with the multi.

[Cascade]

I thought i knew this but I cannot find it in the most recent General or Supplementary Conditions of Contest.

[Cascade]

This must have been added to the systems policy in one of the revisions:

October 2007, October 2008 or September 2009.

I have checked a version from 2005 and it was not in there then.

[Gerben42]

Perhaps it was added especially to attract ACBL players to the Philly championships?

After all, if it's standard policy in the ACBL to have this, people might miss it in the WBF tourney... Not that I think that it's a good policy to allow people parts of their system notes at the table, but that's another matter.

[JanM]

It was added at least 2 and I think 3 years ago. The reason is that Multi meets the definition of BS methods; it's excepted from the definition because so many people had already been playing it when WBF defined and limited BS methods (long ago), but that doesn't make it any easier to defend against. So the WBF Systems Committee compromised on allowing it but allowing written defenses just like those allowed to normal BS methods.

By the way, for all of you who think Multi is trivial to defend against, what would you bid after 2♦-2♠-DBL (P/C) with:

x, x, KQJxx, QJ9xxx ?

or

Axx, Qx, KJx, AJ9xx ?

These aren't made up hands - they both came up in a set of 60 multi deals where the auction would have gone 2♦-2♠-DBL. I was glad that I knew what RDBL and 2NT meant for my partnerships. Incidentally, our Multi defense is much longer and more complex than our defense to any other BS bid except 2C Multi.

[mrdct]

I can't imagine what self-respecting bridge player would avail themselves of the option of having a written defense to a multi at the table. You would be sending a pretty strong message to your opponents that you are uncomfortable about their methods and aren't capable of memorising a few lines of system.

[hrothgar]

JanM, on Sep 20 2010, 12:44 AM, said:

Incidentally, our Multi defense is much longer and more complex than our defense to any other BS bid except 2C Multi.

I find it hard to believe that this has much to do with the specific nature of the multi 2♦ opening.

If I had to guess, I'd state this this probably owes much more to the fact that

1. You encounter a multi 2♦ opening an order of magnitude more often than you do any other BSC

2. Therefore, you've chosen to invest a lot more time / effort documenting your defense against this specific method.

[gnasher]

JanM, on Sep 19 2010, 10:44 PM, said:

By the way, for all of you who think Multi is trivial to defend against, what would you bid after 2♦-2♠-DBL (P/C) with:

x, x, KQJxx, QJ9xxx ?

3♣ (forcing)

Quote

or

Axx, Qx, KJx, AJ9xx ?

3♥ (initially just a non-specific game-force; when I bid 4♠ it will show a good raise)

[JanM]

mrdct, on Sep 19 2010, 02:55 PM, said:

I can't imagine what self-respecting bridge player would avail themselves of the option of having a written defense to a multi at the table. You would be sending a pretty strong message to your opponents that you are uncomfortable about their methods and aren't capable of memorising a few lines of system.

I guess I know a lot of world champions whom you don't consider self-respecting bridge players then.

[JanM]

gnasher, on Sep 19 2010, 03:27 PM, said:

JanM, on Sep 19 2010, 10:44 PM, said:

By the way, for all of you who think Multi is trivial to defend against, what would you bid after 2♦-2♠-DBL (P/C) with:

x, x, KQJxx, QJ9xxx ?

3♣ (forcing)

I knew I should have made this hand weaker , but I wanted to be honest about what the dealing program had produced. What would you bid on the auction if the hand was something like x,x,Kxxxx,Qxxxxx ?

[the hog]

JanM, on Sep 20 2010, 05:45 AM, said:

mrdct, on Sep 19 2010, 02:55 PM, said:

I can't imagine what self-respecting bridge player would avail themselves of the option of having a written defense to a multi at the table.  You would be sending a pretty strong message to your opponents that you are uncomfortable about their methods and aren't capable of memorising a few lines of system.

I guess I know a lot of world champions whom you don't consider self-respecting bridge players then.

Well Jan, I agree with Dave. I would be ashamed to have a written defence to the multi at the table.

[Siegmund]

Quote

The reason is that Multi meets the definition of BS methods; it's excepted from the definition because so many people had already been playing it when WBF defined and limited BS methods (long ago)

A lot of people were playing Wilkosz before they invented brown sticker rules too. Wish they had made that exception too!

I hadn't been aware of the written-defense rule. But then, a) I can't imagine I'd need to refer to my notes to remember my multi defense, and not like I play in WBF events every day anyway.

[jjbrr]

hi trolls

edit: I know this rule. In my experience everyone outside of America instantly flipped out when it was enforced. Lol.

[kfay]

jjbrr, on Sep 19 2010, 08:36 PM, said:

hi trolls

edit: I know this rule. In my experience everyone outside of America instantly flipped out when it was enforced. Lol.

Confirmed