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Should I double with that? Not using support X/XX ...

#1 User is offline   Efrahim 

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Posted 2010-September-09, 07:11

1♦ - pass - 1♠ - 2♣ - now it is my turn ...

Not using support X/XX, should I double this sequence with my hand:


I do not know if this double should always show extra values or can be made by even a minimum hand with the shape ...
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#2 User is offline   Flameous 

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Posted 2010-September-09, 07:27

Yeah, this is perfect X with or without support X.
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#3 User is offline   pooltuna 

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Posted 2010-September-09, 07:58

Efrahim, on Sep 9 2010, 08:11 AM, said:

1♦ - pass - 1♠ - 2♣ - now it is my turn ...

Not using support X/XX, should I double this sequence with my hand:


I do not know if this double should always show extra values or can be made by even a minimum hand with the shape ...

my choice would be 2♠
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#4 User is offline   gwnn 

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Posted 2010-September-09, 08:04

3451 indeed the perfect takeout double.
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#5 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2010-September-09, 08:22

I'm not so sure, what is the vulnerability & scoring?
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#6 User is offline   bluecalm 

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Posted 2010-September-09, 08:33

Easy pass/2♠. Double should show extras here when not playing support doubles.
2♠ is possible option if your style permits (it probably should).
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#7 User is offline   neilkaz 

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Posted 2010-September-09, 08:54

bluecalm, on Sep 9 2010, 09:33 AM, said:

Easy pass/2♠. Double should show extras here when not playing support doubles.
2♠ is possible option if your style permits (it probably should).

Agreed completely.
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#8 User is offline   hanp 

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Posted 2010-September-09, 09:04

I must admit I am not retro enough not to play support doubles.
and the result can be plotted on a graph.
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#9 User is offline   Simplicity 

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Posted 2010-September-09, 09:20

3451 is indeed a great shape for a t/o double.

However I think 2♠ here is a better description - we show partner a minimum hand with support. It's not like we miss our heart fit when game is on - partner can still bid them himself and we'll raise. Yes me may miss our 44 heart fit, but if that's the case then partner has 5 spades anyways (he'd have responded 1♥ with 44 in the majors) and we're probably in as a good spot.

One fringe benefit of this is that if we were to bid

1♦ (p) 1♠ (2♣)
X (p) 2♦ (p)
2♠

we've now shown partner a non minimum with 3 card support.
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#10 User is offline   bucky 

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Posted 2010-September-09, 17:40

Efrahim, on Sep 9 2010, 08:11 AM, said:

1♦ - pass - 1♠ - 2♣ - now it is my turn ...

Not using support X/XX, should I double this sequence with my hand:
Dealer: ?????
Vul: ????
Scoring: Unknown
♠ Kxx
♥ KQJx
♦ QTxxx
♣ x
 


I do not know if this double should always show extra values or can be made by even a minimum hand with the shape ...

I vaguely remember that in old-fashioned bridge, X is penalty. I do think take-out is superior, but you ought to make sure partner plays the same way. You may also want to define it as showing extra value, since that is an important message to convey, in the meanwhile many take-out shape hands with minimum value can find a natural bid. I don't think this hand falls into the "extra value" camp, so 2♠ would be my choice. Of course partner doesn't know whether I have 3 or 4-card support, which is the reason why Rodwell invented support X.
 
 
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#11 User is offline   Free 

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Posted 2010-September-10, 02:04

Perfect shape, just Dbl please ;)
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#12 User is offline   P_Marlowe 

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Posted 2010-September-10, 04:48

Hi,

2S.

If you have no idea / agreement what X in this seq. showes,
go with the safest bet, and this is raising p suit.

With kind regards
Marlowe
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
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#13 User is offline   bluecalm 

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Posted 2010-September-10, 06:06

Quote

I must admit I am not retro enough not to play support doubles.


Lauria Versace don't play support doubles. I think other Italian pairs don't play them either (not 100% sure though). It's not that retro. In fact I think it makes a lot of sense if you play wide range openings. Having extras you are often stuck for good bid.
Obviously in systems like polish club or precision this double is not of much use without support hence someone who play such systems invented support double :P
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#14 User is offline   mgoetze 

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Posted 2010-September-10, 08:44

Easy t/o double for me.
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#15 User is offline   Siegmund 

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Posted 2010-September-13, 01:04

Quote

I vaguely remember that in old-fashioned bridge, X is penalty.


That's what I'd expect X to be, opposite any partner who said he didn't want to play support doubles (provided partner's name isn't Lauria or Versace.) Even on THIS forum I thought penalty would get more votes than takeout for second place after support X.
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