[1axbycz1]

Hi,

I have been playing against precision players more and more frequently, and I would want to compete instead of just passing. But before I learn any defense methods, I need to understand how precision bidding works. I do not ask for a reply that explains the whole system (that would be impossible), but any good links in which I could learn precision?

[Free]

Do you mean the strong 1♣ opening, the nebulous 1♦ opening, or the entire system?

[mgoetze]

"Precision" is a pretty broad term nowadays, mostly the common base is just having (almost) all strong hands in 1♣ (and nothing else), and 5-card majors.

One important thing to is to have a defense against both weak and strong 1NT and a clear definition of which NTs count as strong and which count as weak (classical precision has the somewhat unusual range of 13-15).

2♣ is usually pretty natural, with up to 15 points. You probably don't need any special agreements.

You'll want a defense against 2♦ showing a three-suiter with short diamonds (4414, (34)15, 4405, etc.). Nowadays some people use 2♥ to show this hand, which is quite a bit harder to defend against.

1♦ is usually a catchall not really showing diamonds, the simple agreement that double shows majors and a "cuebid" of 2♦ is actually a natural overcall should work.

As to the strong 1♣ itself, you'll find plenty of gadgets. The important thing to keep in mind is that you should preempt aggressively with good shape (points don't matter very much, especially when non-vulnerable), and generally stay quiet with balanced hands.

[1axbycz1]

I would like to learn the whole system, but if you have links for 1c and 1d opening, I would not mind. What I learnt so far about precision is that 1c promises 16+ points, majors show 5. Then 1nt? Does it promise a balanced hand? Then what about defending against 1nt? I currently double to show 1 suiter, but isn't the penalty double needed here? What about 2-level bids? And what does "gambling 3nt" mean? I would assume 3 and 4-level bids are pre-emptive?

And after the strong club opening, options by responder? Can very distributional hands be opened 1c? Does 1c have an upper limit? 1d being artificial negative, then other bids? natural? game force? I know you cant possibly explain everything here, so I would appreciate if you have any good links that can "teach" me how to play precision, and know how to counter it. I do not want to memorise counters without knowing what it means. I believe understanding is more important, even as a beginner.

As for the many "precision" systems, I would just want to learn the most common one, or any of the variations if you can find me suitable links. I hope I do not need to ask the opponents the meaning of their bids (is that allowed?) before acting accordingly.

[mgoetze]

1axbycz1, on Sep 7 2010, 01:15 PM, said:

I would like to learn the whole system, but if you have links for 1c and 1d opening, I would not mind. What I learnt so far about precision is that 1c promises 16+ points, majors show 5. Then 1nt? Does it promise a balanced hand? Then what about defending against 1nt? I currently double to show 1 suiter, but isn't the penalty double needed here? What about 2-level bids? And what does "gambling 3nt" mean? I would assume 3 and 4-level bids are pre-emptive?

And after the strong club opening, options by responder? Can very distributional hands be opened 1c? Does 1c have an upper limit? 1d being artificial negative, then other bids? natural? game force? I know you cant possibly explain everything here, so I would appreciate if you have any good links that can "teach" me how to play precision, and know how to counter it. I do not want to memorise counters without knowing what it means. I believe understanding is more important, even as a beginner.

As for the many "precision" systems, I would just want to learn the most common one, or any of the variations if you can find me suitable links. I hope I do not need to ask the opponents the meaning of their bids (is that allowed?) before acting accordingly.

1♣ is always unlimited. The most common response scheme is that 1♦ is any 0-7 (the original precision included some stronger 4441 hands) and all other responses are 8+, natural GF. A common modern modification is that the GF responses are transfers.

1NT is normally pretty standard, balanced with a 3-point range. That range might be 13-15, 14-16, (11)12-14 or even 10-12.

You shouldn't view "Gambling 3NT" as part of precision for purposes of learning a defense, as it is just as common in combination with other systems and not an integral part of precision at all. Similarly, some people will play straight weak 2s, some will play 2♥ and 2♠ as two-suiters, and that also has very little to do with whether they are otherwise playing precision or polish club or "standard american".

Here's a pretty simple precision system taught by OliverC in the BIL: http://bbo.pigpen.org.uk/Intro.php

[Free]

Ok, hopefully this helps in understanding the system and it's core philosophy.

The most basic scheme is:
1♣ = 16+HCP, any distribution
1♦ = 11-15HCP, 2+♦ (11-13HCP balanced or 11-15HCP with ♦)
1M = 11-15HCP, 5+M
1NT = 14-16HCP, balanced
2♣ = 11-15HCP, 5♣-4M or 6+♣
2♦ = 11-15HCP, 4-4-1-4/4-3-1-5/3-4-1-5/4-4-0-5
Rest pretty much undefined, maybe 2NT as 20-21HCP balanced.

What we see here is a 1♣ opening which is forcing, unlimited in strength, and shows nothing of the distribution. There are many response schemes available, but usually you'll encounter 1♦ being any non-GF hand, and 1♥+ as GF while describing shape. Some play natural, some reverse the meanings of 1♥ and 1♠ to rightside, some play transfers,... But the principle is usually the same.
You can clearly see the weakness: after 1♣ and 1♣-1♦, at most 1 opponent knows the limit of the hand and both players don't have any clue about the strain they should play. So intervening is pretty safe and makes it harder for opps to find the correct strain and level.
However, after 1♣-1♥+ the auction is GF and they usually know something about the distribution as well by now. Intervening when the auction is GF is dangerous, because they use penalty Dbl (pass would mean they don't have anything to say - auction is forcing anyway).
Conclusion: in direct seat and after a negative response, you can intervene more agressive than you'd do against another system relatively safely to disrupt/destroy their methods. After a GF response however, you should hold your bid!

The 1M openings are lighter than normal, and are limited to 15HCP. The biggest difference is that responder can jump to game on a lot more hands than in natural systems. When the opener can still have 21HCP, you won't jump with a flat 12HCP. When opener can only have 15, you'll jump to 4M more often. Opps might intervene and get punished severely, because they don't know if this is preemptive or to make.
Otherwise these openings are pretty much standard, you can play whatever methods you want.
Conclusion: defend like you'd do against a normal 1M opening, but keep the HCP range in mind.

The 1NT opening is basically a standard strong NT. Some pairs play weak or mini NT instead, but that's not part of precision. Most of the time 1NT openings are balanced with some HCP range.
Conclusion: defend like you normally do against such HCP range. Define what is a weak NT and what is a strong NT, and use different defenses against these.

The 2♣ opening shows one of 2 hand types: 6+♣ or 5+♣-4M. The biggest disadvantage is that they sometimes miss an easy 4-4M fit (std will bid 1♣-1M-2M, they will bid 2♣-pass). My limited experience with this opening is that it's better not to intervene for fun, because negative Dbl's will help them more often.
Also, these days many pairs play 2♣ as a 6 card suit and open something else with only 5♣ (1♦ or 2♦).
Conclusion: intervene if you have the values and shape, but don't intervene to disrupt their methods.

The 2♦ opening is a patch basically. Note that it can be 5♣-4M and 3-4OM, which could theoretically be opened 2♣. As I said before, the biggest disadvantage of the 2♣ opening is missing a Major fit. This 2♦ opening helps a lot! Also, the 4-4-1-4 hand has no other place: it's not balanced, doesn't hold 5M or 5♣, isn't strong, so the only alternative would be to open 1♦. But in that case the 1♦ opening could be as short as a singleton which isn't a great description if the auction gets competitive.
I don't have much experience with defending against this, so I won't give any advice on that.

The 1♦ opening is the rest of the hands. Basically it shows 11-15HCP and 2+♦. Usually it has 3+♦, but it could be balanced. Sometimes shapes defined in other openings are allowed to open 1♦, like 4-2-2-5 for example (to find the ♠ fit, or signoff in 2♣ -> 1♦-1♥-1♠-1NT-2♣, or 1♦-1♠-2♠). Many schemes are used here: some use 1♥ as a relay, other use 1♥ as 2-way (♥ or relay), others play natural responses like std systems.
Conclusion: it may not be the longest or 2nd longest suit, but it uses pretty natural continuations or relays. Many advise to consider this as a natural opening, because it's the easiest way to handle it.

[Flameous]

Hahaa, Free beat me to it, but with these two posts combines you should get pretty good picture

You can always ask what a bid means and it's important to do so, especially when alerted.

Here is precision as I play it, but this is quite unusual.

1♣ = 15+ any
For defense, you can play everything natural with exception of 1NT or you can play various two suiters showing bids.

1♦ = 10-14, 3+, unbal (So can have longer clubs)
This kind of diamond opening should be treated just like natural.

1♥/♠ = 10-14, 5+
Again, natural does it.

1NT = 12-14 balanced or short ♦s (Includes (43)15, 4414 and (24)25)
Defend like you usually defend weak NTs and make us lose for having obscure shapes in NT

2♣ = 10-14, 6+ (5 when specifically 4405)
Again natural does it.


So as you see, against my version of precision natural methods take you very far.

But the key point of understanding opponent's precision system is always what they open their 1♦ with. Variations include 1♦ showing 0+♦s (The most nebulous), 2+♦s (Includes balanced hands, this can be handled as natural or with having 2♦ overcall, I don't have strong opinions) 3+♦s like mine or some versions even have 4+♦ (Their 2♣ sucks)

If their 1♦ shows diamonds, find out what they do without them. Typical options include:

Original precision 2♣ opening, which shows 5+♣ and 4M or 6+♣, my suggestion is to not even defend against this opening (in MP at least) cause they are always missing their good major fits)

2♦ or 2♥ as showing 3 suiter with short ♦s. I'm not really sure what is good defense against these but it includes clubs never being natural.

Few more things about answers to 1♣.
Typically if you have a pickup partner to play precision with, answers are
1♦ negative (0-8 or so)
1♥ - 2♦ natural 5+, game forcing
2♥/♠ natural, 6 cards and 5-8 or so.

There's also various transfer themes, for example:
1♥ = 5+♠s
1♠ = 5+♥s
1NT = 5+♣s
2♣ = 5♦s
2♦ Balanced

Or

1♥ = ♠s
1♠ = bal
1NT = ♥s
2♣/♦ = Natural

You just want to have an agreement what to do when it's transfer. You could for example X it for lead and bid the indicated suit for T/O or for michael's or some other meaning, maybe transfer of your own.

There are also other answer themes more regular partnerships might use.
Like 1♦ negative or 14+, others 8-13 or using 1♥ as GF and others are 5-8 and usually have some transfer theme.

And then there are some totally different structures to be solved by relays. My answers: (From dejeuner, forcing pass system)

1♦ Negative
1♥ 4+♥s, unbal or singlesuited in ♠s
1♠ Balanced
1NT ♣s, may have ♦s
2♣ ♠+♣
2♦ 5+♠, 4+♦
2♥ 4♠, 5+♦
2♠+ Different ♦ single-suiters

I hope I've helped in some ways

[PrecisionL]

9 Precision references:

http://bridgefiles.n.../SearchINFO.htm

[spotlight7]

1axbycz1, on Sep 7 2010, 07:15 AM, said:

I would like to learn the whole system, but if you have links for 1c and 1d opening, I would not mind. What I learnt so far about precision is that 1c promises 16+ points, majors show 5. Then 1nt? Does it promise a balanced hand? Then what about defending against 1nt? I currently double to show 1 suiter, but isn't the penalty double needed here? What about 2-level bids? And what does "gambling 3nt" mean? I would assume 3 and 4-level bids are pre-emptive?

And after the strong club opening, options by responder? Can very distributional hands be opened 1c? Does 1c have an upper limit? 1d being artificial negative, then other bids? natural? game force? I know you cant possibly explain everything here, so I would appreciate if you have any good links that can "teach" me how to play precision, and know how to counter it. I do not want to memorise counters without knowing what it means. I believe understanding is more important, even as a beginner.

As for the many "precision" systems, I would just want to learn the most common one, or any of the variations if you can find me suitable links. I hope I do not need to ask the opponents the meaning of their bids (is that allowed?) before acting accordingly.

Hi:

1NT promises a balanced hand(but some players in many systems open with 'singletons' so be warned.

1NT in basic Precision is 13-15, but the modern trend is towards 14-16 by top players.  Some play 10-12 or 10-13.

I use a penalty style double against NT bids with a top range of 14.  You have to decide what is best, however, most top players have given up penalty in favor of shape showing
facing a possible 15HCP.  Whatever fits your style is fine.

Suits bid over their 1NT mean whatever you like.
I often play DONT(showing the suit bid plus a higher suit)

Lionel is somewhat popular in Europe.  X shows Spades plus a lower suit, 2 minor shows that suit plus hearts and 2 major is natural.

Meckwell plays X as 'either' a long minor or both majors,
2 minor shows that suit plus a higher suit and 2 major natural.

Gambling 3NT shows a 'solid' long minor(AKQxxxx) and according to style either no side suit stoppers or 1 or 2 side suits stopped according to your chosen style.

3 level bids are normal(possilbe 6 cards or 5 with a madmen)

4 level bids are natural or NAMYATS(4 minor= a 'good' 4 major opening bid)

Precision plays 1C-1D=any 0-7HCP hand and other bids show 8+ game forcing.

Less than 16HCP hands can be opened 1C with 'good shape.'

1C is unlimited.

1C-bids other than 1D mean whatever you choose.
Basic Precision uses 1C-1M to show 8+ with a 5+ major.
1C-1NT=8-10, 1C-2 minor=5+ minor 8+HCP.

1C-2 major shows 4-7HCP and 6 major in Basic Precision.

1C-1D-1H thru 2D =16-22 non forcing.

1C-1D-1NT=16-18

1C-1D-2H or higher bids are like opening 2C in standard and rebidding a suit.

You are encouraged to 'ask' the other pair what their bids mean.  On bbo you can ask privately so that they do not 'explain their bids to their partner or you give your partner information 'by asking.'

Regards,
Robert

Hi:

I quess that I 'quoted' everything.

Regards,
Robert

[Stephen Tu]

1axbycz1, on Sep 7 2010, 05:15 AM, said:

I would like to learn the whole system

If you'd really like to learn the system, get a copy of the book "Precision Today" by Berkowitz/Manley. I don't think you can really get a good feel for everything solely from web system notes unless you are an experienced player who's played a variety of systems, which it doesn't sound like you are.

[bluecalm]

Quote

get a copy of the book "Precision Today" by Berkowitz/Manley.

+1.
While the book isn't very good resource for advanced/exp player looking to fine tune his/her precision system it's very good guide to learn the basics. In contains many quizzes, lengthy descriptions and is very easy/pleasant read.
There is a risk though that after reading it you will not only want to compete vs precision but switch to precision too !

[dcohio]

bluecalm, on Sep 7 2010, 01:10 PM, said:

There is a risk though that after reading it you will not only want to compete vs precision but switch to precision too !

So very true...

Now I need to find a willing partner to play it with at the club

[Hairy_Scot]

1axbycz1, on Sep 7 2010, 09:31 PM, said:

Hi,

I have been playing against precision players more and more frequently, and I would want to compete instead of just passing. But before I learn any defense methods, I need to understand how precision bidding works. I do not ask for a reply that explains the whole system (that would be impossible), but any good links in which I could learn precision?

You can download this pdf which explains the C.C. Wei version of the system.

http://sites.google....isionClub99.pdf


Any precision players on BBO are more than welcome to contact me with a view to conquering the world.

[1axbycz1]

Yes! I am beginning to like precision! I have been reading only the strong club so far, and I believe it describes strong hands much better, places an upper limit on the other bids. Also, with very strong hands that would be opened 2c in sayc, those hands are also opened 1c and bidding begins at the 1-level rather than the 2-level. I see the advantages, even as an intermediate partner!

[Zelandakh]

Precision has a number of advantages over standard but it also has a number of disadvantages. Your 1C opener is very easy to disturb and preempt. Since it contains many more hand types an auction that starts 1C - 3S - p - p is more difficult to deal with than 2C - p - p - 3S in standard. Any good opps will bid as much as they can over a precision 1C removing much of its theoretical advantage.

The 2C opening is a major drawback in precision. You are starting at the 2 level when everyone else is at the 1 level. The lack of knowledge about the major suits in traditional precision can make Responder's task very difficult sometimes. You also lose your 2D opening for destructive use if playing traditional precision. A preemptive 2D is usually a very effective bid. Finally, if you play a modern precision variation your 1D opening is typically nebulous and only promises 2+, or in some versions even 0+ diamonds. This can be difficult to handle, especially in competition.

I do not mean to put you off precision with this post, only to let you see that it is not a better system than standard but rather it has different advantages and weaknesses.

As for defending it, I would suggest you just treat their 1H and 1S openings as standard; 2C is natural and natural overcalls, etc should also be fine. Their 1D opening is easiest to treat initially as natural just like against standard but you need an agreement about showing diamonds - if you agree that any delayed diamond bid is natural then you are fine and it is simple. You can use Responder's suit for a cue if they show one.

Finally, if they open 1C bid something on the merest excuse and if your partner bids something then raise them to the limit as quickly as possible. Jumps should show a decent 5 card suit or any 6 card suit. Use X for both majors and 1NT for both minors. Finally with a good hand of your own you can afford to pass and bid next round. There are more advanced systems around but the above is simple and reasonably effective.

[mycroft]

1C is beautiful - when they let you alone. It's still pretty good when they don't. It sucks royally when they get to 2S+ before opener gets a chance to rebid. You *need* three systems playing Precision - one for most hands, one for when it goes 1C-p-response-p, and one when it goes 1C and they aren't so nice. And the amount of work that goes into each is about the same. The good news, however, is that the amount of work that goes into the "didn't open 1C" system is so much less.

2C, yeah, it's a level higher, but it doesn't show xx+. There's a downside, but remember, the opponents (who are more likely than us to have a major fit) don't have the one level either. I strongly recommend 2C promises 6, not this potential 5C4M. It makes 1D auctions less comfortable, but it makes 2C auctions a lot more comfortable.

The big benefits come when you open 1M. Really. Frankly, 4 bids are damaged (two mildly, two totally) to get you your beautiful 1M auctions. Also, usually people open lighter (especially 1M!) than in standard, because they're limited to 15. That's good, because you're using your system more; that's hard to handle, because you will be playing more <20 HCP hands. You will be involved in more competitive auctions (note: this isn't a bad thing), and you will have to adjust when you compete, when you double, and when you pass based on the weaker opening.

One other thing: at least playing Matchpoints, I find playing Precision much more exhausting than Standard. Playing the system everybody else plays, you are faced with basically the same decisions, and you know that no matter what, at least everybody else has to make that decision. Playing Precision in a Standard environment, many of your easy hands are problem hands in Standard (good); but many of your problem hands are easy hands in Standard - so you don't have the protection of the field when you make the decision. Conversely, of course, when you decide and get it very right, you're not in a crowd of ties!

As Zel says, it's just different; and some people (like me) like the strengths more than they dislike the weaknesses compared to standard, and some people don't. To defend against it, yes, have a defence to their 1C - they'll eat you alive if you always let that bid alone. But more importantly, always always remember they're limited to 15 when they *don't* open 1C. Count declarer's hand. Know that responder will make stronger signoffs and preemptive raises, and just because she sounds really weak doesn't mean that she necessarily is (of course, she might be; and she might be stealing you blind. But 11-15 opposite a flat 9 likely won't make game, so she'll raise to the same level she would with zero; 12-21 opposite a flat 9 will make game a significant proportion of the time, so standard bidders can't just sign off/preempt). When they open (not 1C) you have a game more often than when Standard people do; you have to prepare for that. When opener jump-rebids, it's shape, not strength - you have to take that into account.

[P_Marlowe]

1axbycz1, on Sep 7 2010, 03:31 AM, said:

Hi,

I have been playing against precision players more and more frequently, and I would want to compete instead of just passing. But before I learn any defense methods, I need to understand how precision bidding works. I do not ask for a reply that explains the whole system (that would be impossible), but any good links in which I could learn precision?

To make life hard for precison player, you dont need to understand
how precision works.

The 1C is their strong opening, and if they have enough space, they will
usually find the best contract.
The main issue with the 1C opener compared to a 1?? standard opening
is, that opener did not start with describing his shape, and this is a bid
disadvantage of the 1C opening bid, the shape information is more important
than the information about highcard strength.

Another issue compared with a standard 2C opening bid is, that 1C is strong,
but even if they have opened 1C, it is not clear, that they have the power
for a game contract.

If they have opened 1C, it is highly unlikely, that our side will have the strength
for a game level contract.

From this followes, that you should go in and kill the available space to make
it difficult for them to sort out the shape issues, and the strength issues,
=> If you go in agressive with suits, and p raised (e.g. LoTT conform), they
will have a hard time, they will collect penalty tricks, but have a hard time to
compensate for missing game.

The above is also true, if it went (1C) - Pass - (1D) - ..., the process to describe
shape did not get really started.

The 1D opening is quite often overloaded, but limited.
An overloaded openings need also time and space to unravel.
But after a 1D opening, the likeliness, that we have game, is still high enough,
so going in over a 1D should show constructive values.
If you always treat the 1D opening bid as natural, this will work most of the time.

All other bids you can treat the way, you would treat a natural opening bid.

Given the limited nature of the bids, it is slightly more dangerous to go in, so
it makes sense to tighen your req. for 1 / 2 level overcall, but I would not worry
too much.

With kind regards
Marlowe

PS: If you want to take up Precsion, just one remark - spend at leats 66% of the
discussion time, on discussing, what to do, if they intervene, and 66% may even
to low. The suggested references usually dont deal with interference in a sensible
manner, and get lost in uncontested auction.
The power of standard is, that standard is more robust, if they get in our constr.
auctions.

[W Kovacs]

My partner and I play Precision on BBO (straight out of Precision Today, more or less). Here's my take on it.

1)Yes, 1C openings are easy to interfere with. But 1C openings are relatively rare. how often are you going to hold 16+ as dealer. Holding 16+ in 3rd or 4th seat almost always gaurantees someone else is bidding. Almost.

2) 2C openings aren't that big of a minus. If you hold them to 6+ club suits (which we do), then your hand is limited AND you show your distribution quite nicely. Plus, they are extremely rare.

3) 1D openings are a bit sticky, most of the time. If partner opens one, I assume 4 diamonds and go on from there, until shown otherwise.

4) The loss of a 2D preempt is minor, if even a disadvantage at all. The ops still can show their majors, which is what they want to show anyway (who cares about those stupid clubs). Besides, when playing standard, we usually play Flannery anyway to get rid of ugly 4-5-2-2, etc. minimum openers.

The big positives are those very nice, limited openings. On 65% of the hands where partner opens, I know immediately which level we need to be at, and usually have a good idea which strain as well. You don't get that comfort level with standard.

And Marlowe has the defense against Precision openers pretty well described. Although most players will have a system against interference.

[1axbycz1]

Alright. Got your point. So after 1c I need to be agressive with my pre-empts right? But I suppose I still need to stay quiet with balanced hands of minimal strength?

Is pre-empting still good when my side is vulnerable and the opps are not?

Then what about 1h-p-4h for example? Is responder showing a strong hand or pre-emptive?

[spotlight7]

1axbycz1, on Sep 8 2010, 09:37 PM, said:

Alright. Got your point. So after 1c I need to be agressive with my pre-empts right? But I suppose I still need to stay quiet with balanced hands of minimal strength?

Is pre-empting still good when my side is vulnerable and the opps are not?

Then what about 1h-p-4h for example? Is responder showing a strong hand or pre-emptive?

Hi:

Agressive bidding over their 1C* is a good thing.

Many pairs play conventions that show two suiters with little or no HCP values.

Pass and later bids tends to show a decent hand.

You bid at your first chance with lesser valued hands.

Red vs white keep your bids decent.

1M-4M by forcing club pairs are sometimes preemptive like standard bidding

and sometimes up to 13/14HCP without a lot of Aces and Kings.

Regards,
Robert