[matant]

What are the advantages of playing a strong pass bidding system?

[mgoetze]

You can save yourself up for the really big tournaments because all the other ones won't let you enter?

Maybe you should say more about your motivation for asking this question if you want a useful answer.

[rbforster]

1. More space for constructive bidding after the opening pass (~60% more than precision).

2. Limited openings allow for lighter distribution actions that make more of "your opponents hands" into competitive ones.

3. Very weak bids, Ferts or similar, may be unfamiliar and troublesome for opponents. An example would be 1♥ or 2♣ showing any poor non-preempt hand, say 0-8 points.

Also note that with more space after the initial pass to work out ranges, shapes, etc via relays, you can lower the minimum point requirement for a strong pass fairly comfortably. So instead of a 16+ precision 1♣, you could have a 14+ strong pass. This means for the same range, you get some combination of tighter ranges on your non-pass bids and/or lighter openers than were possible otherwise (giving you more benefits under #2 above).

[rbforster]

A more technical benefit is that if you play transfer relays after a strong pass, you can easily transfer to both majors and still have a cheap "negative" bid, i.e.

Strong Pass - ?

1♣ negative, not enough to GF
1♦ GF with hearts (transfer)
1♥ GF with spades (transfer), and not hearts
...

After a strong 1♣, it's much harder to get the transfers right and still have a cheap bid to get out with a poor responding hand.

[Gerben42]

The main advantage is that you put the opponents under pressure by opening the bidding on a much higher % of hands than other systems. Opponents are always on the defense. For example consider this opening structure:

Pass = 14+
1♣ = 8 - 13, 4+♥
1♦ = 8 - 13, 4+♠
1♥ = 0 - 7 (9 balanced)
1♠ = 8 - 13, 4+♦ (6+♦ or both minors)
1NT = 10 - 13 balanced
2♣ = 8 - 13, 6+♣
2♦+ = preempts

75% of all hands will be opened, and except for the garbage 1♥, all bids describe the distribution and have a small point range. The garbage opening puts opponents under pressure, and after the strong pass you have 1 extra step compared to a strong ♣ when there is no interference.

The biggest minus is that you have to open rather weak balanced hands on a possibly uncomfortable level or increase the range of the garbage opening bid.

[mycroft]

following on from Gerben, "75% of hands are opened"... and those that are passed, the opponents are really "overcalling" as well. So, unless they're also playing a FP-type system, they only get to use their constructive system in first seat, providing they have an opener - which isn't 75% of the time, probably.

I do like watching FP vs FP, though.

[nigel_k]

Rob F, on Sep 1 2010, 09:53 AM, said:

A more technical benefit is that if you play transfer relays after a strong pass, you can easily transfer to both majors and still have a cheap "negative" bid, i.e.

Strong Pass - ?

1♣ negative, not enough to GF
1♦ GF with hearts (transfer)
1♥ GF with spades (transfer), and not hearts
...

After a strong 1♣, it's much harder to get the transfers right and still have a cheap bid to get out with a poor responding hand.

When I played it, we used 1♣ as semi-positive (7-11) and 1♦ as negative (0-6). So you are at the same level with a positive as you would be after a 'strong' club opening, but with the advantage of of the semi-positives being able to relay at the same level as positives after P-1♣-1♦. And the other advantages of semi-positives.

It's also much better to be a step lower after the 1♣/♦ openings. The continuations after 1♦ showing hearts or 1♥ showing spades are a bit cramped.

Certainly you don't do it expecting to gain from the fert opening's preemptive value or by preventing the opponents using their system. You expect a net loss from those cases to be compensated by gains when opening with pass, 1♣ or 1♦.

[the hog]

Gerben has hit the nail on the head. I have played one SP system seriously in national competitions and a few for fun, such as Regres, NoName and Suspensor.
The opening pass is not great as it is liable to prevention. Where you gain heaps is by opening all 8-12 hands. Consider this auction:
1C 2H
Where 1C = 8-12 with 4+H and 2H = 7-11 with 4H. Opponents are now forced to commence their constructive auctions at a high level.
We also found the fert to be a winner. We rarely got hit in ferts, and when we did, it usually did not cost a lot, if anything.
The other point about SP systems is that they are a heap of fun to play, both for the players and for the opponents.

[akhare]

Gerben42, on Aug 31 2010, 03:54 PM, said:

The main advantage is that you put the opponents under pressure by opening the bidding on a much higher % of hands than other systems. Opponents are always on the defense. For example consider this opening structure:

Pass = 14+
1♣ = 8 - 13, 4+♥
1♦ = 8 - 13, 4+♠
1♥ = 0 - 7 (9 balanced)
1♠ = 8 - 13, 4+♦ (6+♦ or both minors)
1NT = 10 - 13 balanced
2♣ = 8 - 13, 6+♣
2♦+ = preempts

LOL -- this is a jog down the memory lane.

DrTodd and I (foobar) played this exact same structure for many years.

As Ron noted, the fert seldom got punished too badly -- once when we went for a big phone number, the opps were cold for 7N. That said, I think the fert is a double edged sword and constructive auctions over a 1♥ opening can be awkward to say the least (1N was the only forcing bid in our scheme).

Of course, the opening P is kind of vulnerable to preemption as well and we may not be as well placed over it as after say 1♣ = 16+...

[Free]

In short, it puts serious pressure on your opponents.

Basically every hand you want to overcall with (around 8-12HCP) is opened in a FP system, so you don't have to wait until opps open.

Weaker hands are usually opened 1♦ or 1♥ (I've also seen 1♠) and give nothing away about the distribution. This makes competing for opps very difficult: they can't use their normal system, they don't have cuebids, they already lost 3/4 of a level,... On the other side, our own constructive auctions suck as well. It's a bit randomizing I think, but I don't have enough experience with it to know if it's good or bad for us.

A mini NT is obviously very agressive. You can go for a number sometimes, but usually you get away ok with it.

Pass is the strongest call. It's similar to a strong 1♣ opening, but it's a lot weaker. Therefor opps might have a game available, so they can't really intervene too agressively. My guess is they bid too agressively anyway, which is a bad thing for them, but makes it difficult for us as well.
Over a pass, we have extra space, which is definitely needed! Since the opener is weaker, responder has a much bigger "negative" range. It's advisable to use 3 or 4 ranges and show the difference right away (the extra 1♣ response can be very useful for this).

Another "advantage": you won't have a passout ever, so it's perfect if you're looking to play some hands

[bluecalm]

As Gerben said the strongest point is good narrow range, aggressive openers.
The weakest point is PASS itself as it's very difficult to bid after that in competition (precison or polish club may be difficult but PASS is much much worse).

For the record here are openings from classic fp system "lambda" created by Lukasz Slavinsky:

PASS = 13+any
1♣ = 8-12, balanced or very weird hansd (7-4 etc)
1♦ = 0-7any
1♥ = 8-12 2suiter; "divided" suits (♠ + ♦ or ♥+♣)
1♠ = 8-12 2suiter, reds or blacks
1NT = 8-12 2suiter majors or minors
2♣/2♦/2♥/2♠ = 8-12 one suiter

That's basic version. It's very easy system to learn and play (there are few basic rules about relays and responding (responses are natural, 2nd relay is gf etc.) and after PASS you use the same system basically). After a while it's quite natural to use. I think it's simpler than sayc
Imagine your club opponents facing that though...

[Flameous]

I love playing forcing pass. I have many different types of system, many home brewn and some strong club systems I have just turned in strong pass. Dejeuner (Todd's and Foobars system) is however my favorite. Maybe I just love relays so much but I think it's amazing to know your partners shape and controls in every non competitive auction if you just feel you have the slightest need for it.

I guess it's good to take up in this thread also semi-forcing pass systems. Pass usually shows somewhere around 12-15 points and balancedish (nothing too extreme that makes game opposite nothing) Then you have strong club or two-way club (0-7 or 16+) and others 8-11. You can play the same openings in every seat which makes it fun imo, and with bad hand you can decide to pass your partner's pass as it's limited. This is somewhat important as opponent's can't have two-way passes over your pass as they can against forcing pass.


Btw, I had this argument with one of my friends who considers FP total crap. He mainly claimed that fert is terrible opening cause there are lot's of hand you don't want to be in the auction with. I consider that fert's pre-emptive effect is clearly so good that it makes up some odd times when they punish it. Of course it's a hindrance for our own bidding, but when you have whole 2 lvl for pre-empts, usually fert is also quite well defined. Anyways I wanted to know if anyone could run a simulation with one hand having 0-7 (8 bal) to find out what is the average amount of tricks in their longest fit. Mainly I want to find out how often we are going for 800+ with 1H fert if we play in 1M or 2m.

I'm happy to live in Finland where I'm allowed to play forcing pass whenever I play 6+ boards against same opponents. This basically means all team matches (Shame I don't have a good partner here who likes playing it)

[cloa513]

I don't get the value of vague opening bid- opponents will enter bidding competitively and confuse your final contract (where is the contract level whether its 1C or 2C (though that tends to be so oppressive as to keep out many opponents) or FP. Natural strong balanced as FP is OK as partner can put you many places.

I also don't get the value of a precise suit weak bid at the one level- just as easy for opponents to enter the bidding- sure partner has some contract to focus on but any high quality one or two suit bid gives that why obssess over the HCP.

[bluecalm]

Quote

I also don't get the value of a precise suit weak bid at the one level- just as easy for opponents to enter the bidding

Most strong pass systems don't use precise 1suit openers.
They are usually alternative like the scheme I described above or some either short or long scheme.

[hrothgar]

cloa513, on Sep 1 2010, 03:29 PM, said:

I also don't get the value of a precise suit weak bid at the one level- just as easy for opponents to enter the bidding- sure partner has some contract to focus on but any high quality one or two suit  bid gives that why obssess over the HCP.

Assume for the moment you're sitting over me and that I open 1♠ showing

An unbalanced hand with 4+ Diamonds, (0-3 Hearts), and (0-3 Spades)
Approximately 8 - 12 HCPs

Do you honestly believe that you're just as well placed for your constructive auctions as if I had passed?

Let's extend things a bit

My partner made the same 1♠ opening in first seat.
Your partner passed

I now bid 3♣ which means that I want to play 3♣ if my partner has a two suiter with Clubs. If partner doesn't have clubs, he'll bid 3♦.
Do you still think that its just as easy for you to enter the bidding?

If so, your views are very much in the minority.

[Wackojack]

Ambiguous forcing pass 0-7 or 17+ has the advantage that it enables all 8-16 hands to be reasonably descriptively. After a FP, a 1 club response is also 0-7 or 17+. Then 1D =0-7 and all other bids 17+. Both hands 0-7 then the bidding goes Pass-1C-1D-Pass.

[zenko]

Wackojack, on Sep 1 2010, 10:19 AM, said:

Ambiguous forcing pass 0-7 or 17+ has the advantage that it enables all 8-16 hands to be reasonably descriptively. After a FP, a 1 club response is also 0-7 or 17+. Then 1D =0-7 and all other bids 17+. Both hands 0-7 then the bidding goes Pass-1C-1D-Pass.

Agree, I played that a lot and it worked very well, you are not that sensitive to interference and I do not recall ever going for a big number

[dake50]

Pass forcing doubles the information available to the auction starting pass.
In addition the judicial use of 1-bids keeps the same or better info availability for 1-bids.
Only fert(s) lose info --here a 2-way might pay.
That is if I open Pass --F1, all the responses (plus 1x I would have opened) are added.
So careful picking which hand types into Pass --F1 and other openers unloads much shapexpointsxcontrols cases.

I play
weak 1N,
1M: 4cM, 8-15,
1C: fert or bal 15-17,
1D: strong with hearts or H+m,
2m: 13-17, 5+m,
so Pass-F1 has
spades strong or
18+bal or
S+2nd or
D+C or
D or
C.
Just my partition, high belief it is a good partition.

[hanp]

Seems like a huge forcing pass orgie here!

In the modalfa top 12 last weekend, one of the pairs (Danny Molenaar and Merijn Groeneboom) reversed the meanings of 1D and pass when white. Since they open very light, 1D would show 0-8 points and pass 9-16 or so in an unbalanced hand with 5+ diamonds. It led to some amusing situations, although sometimes it was more amusing for the opponents.

The main advantage seemed to be that some opponents did not always know what they were doing after 1D. The main disadvantage seemed to be that they did not always know what they were doing either, which evened it out somewhat.

[Gerben42]

@Wackojack:

If you are going for something like a 2-way pass, I like Magic ♦ twisted around. This has the advantage that the opening structure is conservative, so that even the fearful can play it vulnerable.

Pass = 9 - 11 NT / 17+
1♣ = 13 - 16 unbal. / 15 - 17 NT (standard Magic ♦ 1♣ opening)
1♦ = Fert
1♥♠ = 8 - 12, 4+M
1NT = 12 - 14 NT
2♣♦ = 8 - 12, 5+card
2♥♠NT = 8 - 12, 5-5 distributions

A second advantage is that the further bidding is almost always the same.

@Han: If you are going to switch around 1♦ and Pass, it must be worth it to
1. adapt the system so that the Pass opening comes up more
2. take some time to discuss further bidding after the changed opening bids