[newchemist]

hi all! First post here.

First off, an introduction: With my regular P we usually play an acol system as follows:

1C: 10+ HCP 4+ clubs
1D: 10+ HCP 4+ dimes
1H: 10+ HCP 4+ hearts (5+ unless 15+ HCP balanced)
1S: 10+ HCP 4+ spades (5+ unless 15+ HCP balanced)
1NT: (11)12-14 HCP

2C: multi, either
1. Ekrens 4+/4+ in hearts and spades, preemptive
2. usual GF

2D: multi, either
1. weak 2 in hearts/spades
2. acol minor
3. 20-22 balanced hand

2H/S: preemptive, dutch twos i.e. 5M/4+m(unknown)

Rest standard. 2/1 sound but not GF.

Recently we have been trying to figure out ways to combine a light preemptive/opening style with ample space for game/slam exploration opposite minimum hands, an aspect lacking in our current bidding system. Standard Precision seemed like a good choice, but

1) We dont like the nebulus 1D/2D openings
2) We arent comfortable with preemption over 1C
3) having two precision 2C/D openings at the 2-level limits us to only 2H/S/NT for preemptive openings

Therefore we have been tinkering around with the opening bids and came up with the following possibilities:

2-way 1C, 5-card majors and strong NT

1C: (10)11-13HCP balanced or 16+ HCP
1D: (9)10-16HCP 4+ dimes (4 only when canape in clubs or 4441 with 4 dimes)
1H: (9)10-16HCP 4+ hearts (4 only when 4441 with singleton dime)
1S: (9)10-16HCP 5+ spades
1NT: 14-16HCP balanced
2C: 11-15HCP 5-4 in clubs and major or 6+ clubs
2D: Multi. weak 2 in heart/spade or acol minor or balanced 20-22.
2H/S: dutch twos

Notice how every suit bid from 1D to 2C strongly implies 5+ except for relatively unusual distributions. Notice also how compared to our original acol structure, we lose the ekrens 2C but gain the ability to open lighter at the one-level and avoid having to open 1M with only 4 cards and a strong balanced hand. Any thoughts? Is a system like this feasible/workable?

yet another question: is it viable to retain a weak NT for preemptive value, via the following set of opening bids

1C: (9)10-13HCP 5-4 in clubs + a major or (9)10-13HCP 6+ clubs, or 16+ HCP
1D: (9)10-16HCP 3+ dime (3 only with 15-17HCP balanced without 4cM)
1H: (9)10-16HCP 4+ heart (4 only when 15-17HCP with 4cM or 4441 with short dime)
1S: (9)10-16HCP 4+ spade (4 only when 15-17 HCP with 4cM without 4 hearts)
1NT: 12-14HCP balanced
2C: 14-16HCP 5-4 in clubs and major or 6+ clubs
2D: Multi. weak 2 in heart/spade or acol minor or balanced 20-22.
2H/S: dutch twos

Once again the weak option in 1C discourages preemption by opponents. yes, the 1-level opening bids lose alot of definition but we retain a weak NT (yay!). A side benefit is that 2C is now slightly stronger than standard, so responder requires less HCPs to initiate relay for 4-cM.

[hrothgar]

newchemist, on Sep 3 2010, 07:59 PM, said:

Recently we have been trying to figure out ways to combine a light preemptive/opening style with ample space for game/slam exploration opposite minimum hands, an aspect lacking in our current bidding system. Standard Precision seemed like a good choice, but

1) We dont like the nebulus 1D/2D openings
2) We arent comfortable with preemption over 1C
3) having two precision 2C/D openings at the 2-level limits us to only 2H/S/NT for preemptive openings

Might want to look at MOSCITO

The core of the current system is

2C = ~ 9-14 HCP with 6+ Clubs
1N = 11+ - 14 Balanced
1♠ = Unbalanced with 4+ Diamonds
1♥ = Unbalanced with 4+ Spades
1♦ = Unbalanced with 4+ Hearts
1♣ = Strong, art. forcing

[mgoetze]

There are thousands of systems called precision, some of which have nothing else in common than a strong 1♣ and 5-card majors. Please don't call your system precision if it doesn't include 5-card majors. Thank you.

[helene_t]

well it is practically 5-card majors but if there is a weak option in the 1♣ opening it is not precision.

Those kind of systems are called 2-way club. Precision is a strong club system. (Or, as mgoetze says, it is thousands of strong club systems)

[the hog]

Your system bears no resemblance to Acol whatsoever.
I suggest you look at "The Science". That is closest to what you currently play.

[benlessard]

look like polish club ?

[vang]

benlessard, on Sep 4 2010, 03:15 AM, said:

look like polish club ?

more like Swedish systems i'd say

[Zelandakh]

If you want to play a weak NT with natural bids in the other suits then you might try this base:-

1C = 15+ bal or 15+ nat or 18+ any
1D = 10-17, 4+ unbal
1H = 10-17, 5+ unbal
1S = 10-17, 5+ unbal
1N = 12-14 (or 11-14 if you prefer)
2C = 10-14 standard precision shapes

There are several systems around from this starting structure which seems to match your requirements. You can even play it "out of the box" using next step from the 1C opener after any response as 18+ and others as 15-17 natural (with suit bids showing clubs + suit bid) although there are better schemes available. I would also suggest solving the traditional strong club issue of 4=4=1=4 shape by including it as a balanced hand possibility, at least for hands in the 12-14 range.

[mgoetze]

Zelandakh, on Sep 4 2010, 11:09 AM, said:

If you want to play a weak NT with natural bids in the other suits then you might try this base:-

Polish club with weak NT? I'll try that - if Opps promise never to bid over our 1♣ opening...

[wank]

lol i don't think it's unreasonable to call a system precision if it's only 4414 shapes or 5+cards in the major openers.

i wouldn't call this precision though because of the 2 way club. as people have said it's more swedishesque.

anyway, nomenclature aside, one of the weakest points of precision is the 2C opener, as responder doesn't know whether to try for 4M or not and often ends up going overboard on misfits.

there's a definite movement to playing 2C as only 6+ clubs or both minors.

you can play 2 diamonds as the same menaing for diamonds, which removes one of the hand types from overloading your 1D opener.

you might end up with something like 1D as promising 5+m4M(31/21 etc) if you open all your 5m4M22s 1NT, which would be very quick to discern following an enquiry.

[the hog]

mgoetze, on Sep 4 2010, 08:37 PM, said:

Zelandakh, on Sep 4 2010, 11:09 AM, said:

If you want to play a weak NT with natural bids in the other suits then you might try this base:-

Polish club with weak NT? I'll try that - if Opps promise never to bid over our 1♣ opening...

These comments about coming in over a Polish 1C opening I find quite amusing. Given that a 1C opening shows a 2-4 hand most of the time, the opps do themselves more damage than us.

[bluecalm]

Quote

These comments about coming in over a Polish 1C opening I find quite amusing. Given that a 1C opening shows a 2-4 hand most of the time, the opps do themselves more damage than us.

I don't agree with that. People who play polish/swedish club like to say that their system is less likely to be preempted because 1♣ may be weakish (12-14 or something).
As someone who played polish club for most of my life I can say it's nonsense. Polish 1♣ is much worse in competition and even simple 2 level overcall may be very damaging.
The reason is that if it goes:

1♣ - 2X/3X then responder is stuck holding a hand below GF strength and not perfect for negative double. For example:

1♣ - 2♠ - ???

Axx
KQxxx
xx
xxx

You have to either pass or make offshape negative double both sucks as hearts are lost forever if they go to 3♠.

It's not that they will jump with every junk. They will just preempt with honest preempting hands and we are often stuck.

[helene_t]

The_Hog, on Sep 5 2010, 03:09 AM, said:

mgoetze, on Sep 4 2010, 08:37 PM, said:

Zelandakh, on Sep 4 2010, 11:09 AM, said:

If you want to play a weak NT with natural bids in the other suits then you might try this base:-

Polish club with weak NT? I'll try that - if Opps promise never to bid over our 1♣ opening...

These comments about coming in over a Polish 1C opening I find quite amusing. Given that a 1C opening shows a 2-4 hand most of the time, the opps do themselves more damage than us.

well the proposed scheme was 1♣=15+ so it's quite safe for opps to interfere destructively over that.

[the hog]

bluecalm, on Sep 5 2010, 04:31 PM, said:

Quote

These comments about coming in over a Polish 1C opening I find quite amusing. Given that a 1C opening shows a 2-4 hand most of the time, the opps do themselves more damage than us.

I don't agree with that. People who play polish/swedish club like to say that their system is less likely to be preempted because 1♣ may be weakish (12-14 or something).
As someone who played polish club for most of my life I can say it's nonsense. Polish 1♣ is much worse in competition and even simple 2 level overcall may be very damaging.
The reason is that if it goes:

1♣ - 2X/3X then responder is stuck holding a hand below GF strength and not perfect for negative double. For example:

1♣ - 2♠ - ???

Axx
KQxxx
xx
xxx

You have to either pass or make offshape negative double both sucks as hearts are lost forever if they go to 3♠.

It's not that they will jump with every junk. They will just preempt with honest preempting hands and we are often stuck.

I diagree with your disagreement. As someone who has played PC a long time, I say the problems are similar to those experienced in 2/1 or says. In fact in PC you are better placed if you can open 1D as that shows 4+. A 1D opening in 2/1 does not. The had you posted is just as much a problem for 2/1 as it is in PC.

[Free]

You might want to take a look at Nightmare (and maybe Orange Club, but I'm not sure).

MOSCITO is obviously awesome if you're used to 4 card Major openings, and you don't like nebulous openings. But you'll need to alert almost everything, and might have issues with system regulations (it's WBF red, but some local authorities use different criteria).

[mgoetze]

The_Hog, on Sep 5 2010, 03:09 AM, said:

mgoetze, on Sep 4 2010, 08:37 PM, said:

Zelandakh, on Sep 4 2010, 11:09 AM, said:

If you want to play a weak NT with natural bids in the other suits then you might try this base:-

Polish club with weak NT? I'll try that - if Opps promise never to bid over our 1♣ opening...

These comments about coming in over a Polish 1C opening I find quite amusing. Given that a 1C opening shows a 2-4 hand most of the time, the opps do themselves more damage than us.

Huh? What are you talking about? What is a 2-4 hand?

Someone upthread proposed playing 1♣ as 15+ balanced or 15+ clubs or 18+ any, i.e. Polish Club with 1NT as 12-14 rather than 15-17. I was commenting on that, not on standard Polish Club.

[the hog]

12-14. The 1 key does not work on the laptop

[Zelandakh]

I'll also add Swedish Club (which someone already mentioned but not by name) and An Unassuming Club to the list of regular systems to check out. The former is quite similar to the first system you posted while AUC is related to the latter. Both of these systems are (imho) simpler than Moscito or Nightmare. Even if you choose not to play them they might help to give ideas for improving what you so eventually decide upon.

[Crunch3nt]

newchemist, on Sep 3 2010, 11:59 AM, said:

1) We dont like the nebulus 1D/2D openings
2) We arent comfortable with preemption over 1C
3) having two precision 2C/D openings at the 2-level limits us to only 2H/S/NT for preemptive openings

Therefore we have been tinkering around with the opening bids and came up with the following possibilities:

2-way 1C, 5-card majors and strong NT

1C: (10)11-13HCP balanced or 16+ HCP
1D: (9)10-16HCP 4+ dimes (4 only when canape in clubs or 4441 with 4 dimes)
1H: (9)10-16HCP 4+ hearts (4 only when 4441 with singleton dime)
1S: (9)10-16HCP 5+ spades
1NT: 14-16HCP balanced
2C: 11-15HCP 5-4 in clubs and major or 6+ clubs
2D: Multi. weak 2 in heart/spade or acol minor or balanced 20-22.
2H/S: dutch twos

You have created here, exactly the Swedish Club and it meets most of your goals. There is a way around having 2C/2D as both 10-15, but of course there is always trade-offs.

Not sure what an acol fan like yourself has against 4 card majors? If you play 4 card majors (can be canape in a minor only) the issue of a 2C opening with a 4 card major doesn't occur.

Then if playing 4 card majors, you are able to use 2NT/3C/3D as showing Single Suited 6 card suits. trading off ineffectual minor preempts.

You seem to have a 4th criteria that is to play a weak NT opening. I do not like your 2nd system suggestion at all as it combines too many balanced / unbalanced hands together, but if you insist on weak NT you could play:

1C = 16+ or weak with clubs, unbal, no major, can be 5/5 minors
1D = 10-15 4+ H, unbal, may have longer minor
1H = 10-15 4+ S, unbal, may have longer minor
1S = 14-16 Bal
1NT = 11-13 Bal
2C = Ekrens
2D = Multi
2H/S = Dutch
2NT = 13-15 6D
3C = Std pre
3D = 10-12 6D

Most people would swap 1S and 1NT around esp vul.

Personally I would give the Dutch 2M openings away ahead of Ekrens - don't achieve that much and very easy to defend against. Perhaps a better suggestion:

1C = 16+ or weak with DIAMONDS, unbal, no major, can be 5/5 minors
1D = 10-15 4+ H, unbal, may have longer minor
1H = 10-15 4+ S, unbal, may have longer minor
1S = 14-16 Bal
1NT = 11-13 Bal
2C = 10-15, 6+ C
2D = Multi
2H = Ekrens
2S = Dutch

If insist on 5 card majors, then how about:

1C = 16+ or weak with Diamonds, unbal, no major, can be 5/5 minors
1D = 10-15, 4 card major, plus 5+ either minor, or any 4441
1H = 10-15 5+ H
1S = 10-15 5+ S
1NT = 12-15 Bal
2C = 10-15, 6+ C
2D = Multi
2H = Ekrens
2S = Dutch

Not sure how 1D opening would work in practise, but looks good!

[mgoetze]

Crunch3nt, on Sep 10 2010, 01:02 AM, said:

Not sure what an acol fan like yourself has against 4 card majors? If you play 4 card majors (can be canape in a minor only) the issue of a 2C opening with a 4 card major doesn't occur.

He was talking about precision as multi-way club with 4-card hearts. Do you really think he means the same thing you do when he talks about ACOL?