[masse24]

The below hand is the dealer, EAST.

Scoring: IMP

---

With an occasional partner, playing 2/1, several gadgets (including Western Q-bids)...the bidding goes:

P (2♥) x (P)
2♠ (P) 3♥ (x)
3♠ (P) 4♣ (P)
?

Double is obviously takeout.

What is 3♥?

What is 4♣?

What is East's next call?[I]

Just looking for additional input.
Thanks!

[655321]

3♥ was forcing, with a heart stopper you would have bid 3NT over it.

What was 3♠ about? When RHO doubled 3♥, you were off the hook and could safely pass this around to partner. Pass is not an offer to play a doubled 3 level contract in their suit, it just means you have nothing to say.

Partner has a strong hand with clubs. Your only choices now are pass or 5♣. I would try 5♣, we have QTx in support and we are vulnerable at IMPs. However pass is also reasonable, RHO did not raise the weak 2 (likely fewer than 3 hearts) but he doubled to show a heart card - i.e. very likely you are off the first 2 heart tricks and need to make the rest to make 5♣.

[awm]

If partner wanted to show a strong hand with clubs after his double, he could've bid 3♣ over 2♠. This certainly shows extras (double then bid your own suit is always extras).

So why did partner bid 3♥, then follow it up with clubs? I think this must show an even bigger hand... a game force. Passing 4♣ should not be an option here, especially when we actually hold a couple of queens! Raising to 5♣ seems clear.

I agree that passing 3♥X would've been a better call -- bidding 3♠ freely here should show a fifth spade. Of course, if RHO had passed rather than doubling 3♥, then we are forced and 3♠ would be a perfectly reasonable choice.

[655321]

awm, on Aug 30 2010, 10:34 PM, said:

If partner wanted to show a strong hand with clubs after his double, he could've bid 3♣ over 2♠. This certainly shows extras (double then bid your own suit is always extras).

So why did partner bid 3♥, then follow it up with clubs? I think this must show an even bigger hand... a game force. Passing 4♣ should not be an option here, especially when we actually hold a couple of queens! Raising to 5♣ seems clear.

As you say, double then 3♣ shows a strong hand but it is nonforcing. Therefore if partner wanted to be in 3NT opposite nothing but a heart stopper he would have to bid 3♥. Then when opponents double 3♥ to let him know 3NT is not on, partner can bid 5♣ if he wants to be in game opposite nothing, or he can bid a (strong but) passable 4♣. Wanting to be in 3NT opposite a stopper is not the same as forcing to 5 of a minor.

It is true that playing this way, a super strong hand might have to bash a contract (5♣, 6♣) eventually whereas if you can bid a forcing 4♣ you (might) get to a more accurate spot, but to me it is consistent with an approach that you can get out in 4m when you don't have a stopper in their suit.

Quote

especially when we actually hold a couple of queens!

So is the bid forcing or only forcing if we have a couple of queens?



I just noticed OP said it was an occasional partnership, if it was a regular partnership he might have an agreement to bid an immediate 3♥ to ask for a heart stopper, allowing him to play this auction (double, cue, 4♣) as forcing.

[Phil]

655321, on Aug 30 2010, 10:59 PM, said:

awm, on Aug 30 2010, 10:34 PM, said:

If partner wanted to show a strong hand with clubs after his double, he could've bid 3♣ over 2♠. This certainly shows extras (double then bid your own suit is always extras).

So why did partner bid 3♥, then follow it up with clubs? I think this must show an even bigger hand... a game force. Passing 4♣ should not be an option here, especially when we actually hold a couple of queens! Raising to 5♣ seems clear.

As you say, double then 3♣ shows a strong hand but it is nonforcing. Therefore if partner wanted to be in 3NT opposite nothing but a heart stopper he would have to bid 3♥. Then when opponents double 3♥ to let him know 3NT is not on, partner can bid 5♣ if he wants to be in game opposite nothing, or he can bid a (strong but) passable 4♣. Wanting to be in 3NT opposite a stopper is not the same as forcing to 5 of a minor.

It is true that playing this way, a super strong hand might have to bash a contract (5♣, 6♣) eventually whereas if you can bid a forcing 4♣ you (might) get to a more accurate spot, but to me it is consistent with an approach that you can get out in 4m when you don't have a stopper in their suit.

Quote

especially when we actually hold a couple of queens!

So is the bid forcing or only forcing if we have a couple of queens?



I just noticed OP said it was an occasional partnership, if it was a regular partnership he might have an agreement to bid an immediate 3♥ to ask for a heart stopper, allowing him to play this auction (double, cue, 4♣) as forcing.

If partner wanted to simply inquire about NT, and bail out in 4♣ if we didn't have a heart stopper, partner would have bid 3♥ over 2♥. I see that you have that in your footnote, but I don't know why you are discounting this so much because the OP is in a non-regular partnership.

Double, 3♥ and then 4♣ has to show a massive hand and is forcing. While it is true that partner could have bashed, the slower sequence has to imply tolerance for other strains. I would expect a hand like AKx, x, AKx, AKxxxx.

Agree with AWM - there's no point to 3♠, we can pass and see what partner is up to.

[655321]

Phil, on Aug 30 2010, 11:21 PM, said:

If partner wanted to simply inquire about NT, and bail out in 4♣ if we didn't have a heart stopper, partner would have bid 3♥ over 2♥. I see that you have that in your footnote, but I don't know why you are discounting this so much because the OP is in a non-regular partnership. 

Double, 3♥ and then 4♣ has to show a massive hand and is forcing. While it is true that partner could have bashed, the slower sequence has to imply tolerance for other strains. I would expect a hand like AKx, x, AKx, AKxxxx.

Agree with AWM - there's no point to 3♠, we can pass and see what partner is up to.

OK, if you are confident that 3♥ would be a stopper ask with no discussion, then I agree with you that this auction is forcing. I am not as confident though, in fact I would not bid an undiscussed 3♥ here lest it be take as Michaels.

But I don't think your example hand is likely - I think that partner will often have 2 losing hearts (RHO has a heart honor but did not raise), and he won't have AKx in spades (we already showed 5).

[hanp]

I agree with 563321 and would bid 5C. Even though partner won't have 3 spades, our spade queen might still be useful. I don't think our opponents would always bid 3H with 3, even to an honor, so partner might well have only one heart loser. AK x Axx AKxxxxx is possible.

[JLOGIC]

I don't agree that 4C is non forcing. Partner might only have 5 clubs for his 4C bid (2245), and will often be something like 2146. He might be interested in seeing if diamonds is the right suit (we haven't denied diamonds), or maybe a 5-2 spade fit or whatever.

Whenever I see double then cue then 4C I'm thinking most likely partner has a flexible hand that is unsure about strain, not that he was trying for 3N and is now trying to stop in 4C. He could have the latter hand, but I think it hurts your bidding too much when you have AK xx AKQx AKJxx or whatever and cannot bid 4C here. Sure that hand might be unlikely, but a hand with 2146 would not need such a super powerhouse in order to want to game force and explore the right strain still, Ax x AKQx AKxxxx would be an example.

And of course 4C being forcing helps when you have a powerful enough 1 suiter that you still might have a slam, which again is unlikely and not the main thing, but it's a perk of being able to bid 4C forcing.

Also, I think 4C would obv be forcing if there had been no double of 3H and opener had just rebid 3S, because the 3S rebid can be on 4. Now all responder hands with a long minor and 3 spades would want to bid the minor, and that is the most common hand type. Just for consistency it doesn't seem that reasonable to change 4C from forcing without the double to NF with the double.

All that said, we are probably losing the thread a little here (no pun intended)

I think it is a common mistake of beginner/intermediate players to think 3H shows support, or even 3 card spade support, and to bid 4C as a cuebid, or take it to mean that. I see it happen all the time.

It's important to have the fundamental ideas down here, and they're pretty complicated, but as others have said:

1) 3 of a minor over 2S would be strong but not forcing, and 4 of a minor would bypass 3N. So out of necessity, the 3H cuebid covers a lot of ground and does NOT promise a fit or even a 3 card fit for spades.

2) Because of 2, 4C is not a cuebid, it shows a suit. The Xer has NEVER shown support.

It is easy to be confused about when does a raise show support, and when doesn't it. For instance:

1S (2H) 3H shows support. Now a later 4C bid would be a cuebid, since the fit has been established. The difference here is that advancer could have bid any suit forcing, or made a negative X with no suit, so all thats left is 3H showing support.

Once a fit has been established, cuebids can begin.

[P_Marlowe]

#1 3H is a bid, that generates a basically game forcing auction,
if he will pass 3S, fine, but unlikely, it may simplify life, if
you say 100% gf
3H also asks for add. description, stopper, min and max.

#2 4C is a cue, setting spades as trumps

#3 4S

With kind regards
Marlowe

[vuroth]

Nice post, Justin. Thanks.

[pooltuna]

3♥=you can't pass and I have a great hand but not to defend 3♥X

4♣=this is MY SUIT

5♣

[Free]

I disagree bigtime with the 3♠ bid. You don't have anything to say, so just pass.

Now, I'd like to bid 4♥ to show some ♣ support and some values, but I'm not strong enough for this. A simple 5♣ is better although I haven't promissed any values so far. I consider 4♣ as a clear forcing bid.

[Phil]

Free, on Aug 31 2010, 09:44 AM, said:

I disagree bigtime with the 3♠ bid.  You don't have anything to say, so just pass.

Now, I'd like to bid 4♥ to show some ♣ support and some values, but I'm not strong enough for this.  A simple 5♣ is better although I haven't promissed any values so far.  I consider 4♣ as a clear forcing bid.

True - this is why you need to bid a slow and painful 5♣

Didn't notice RHO's double initially which definitely discounts 3136 across the table since pard didn't raise my "five" card spade suit. I do disagree that RHO can't have 3♥ - I don't expect my vulnerable opponents to always raise with 3 pieces, especially if they don't have shape.

2245 and 2146 are both pard's likely shapes.

Ax xx AKQx AKJxx isn't a good 5♣, but this feels like a minimum or a subminimum anyway.

Kx x AKQx AKxxxx - this looks about right to me.

I'm sticking with 5♣.

By the way, this is a great discussion hand. WD Masse.

[bucky]

Partner's 3H shows some flexibility. Most likely it is a big hand with 3 spades. If partner has a huge hand with just clubs, he would have bid differently, by either bidding a direct 3H, or bidding 4C following the initial X. Since your 3S bid after RHO's X shows some positive feature with spades, I think partner's 4C here is a cuebid in support of spades. Of course you didn't have what you are supposed to have for bidding the free 3S, so this creates an impossible problem at this moment, I'd just sign off in 4S and get on to next board.

If RHO didn't X and you bid 3S (pretty much forced), and partner bids 4C, it is different. Now I think partner may have something like 3145 or 3136 shape. I'd raise to 5C.

BTW, I hate doubles with insufficient length in the other major. With something like 2146 pattern, I'd start with 3H. So I always count partner for 3-card support, especially after the flexible 3H cue.