Help
Hi all
Playing sayc with an unkown partner. In first seat he opens 1♣, Opps over bid with weak 2♥
I am holding this:
AKx♠ Jxx♥ Ax♦ Jxxxx♣,
We hadn't discussed anything so i simply doubled to show support but appreciate this can be seen as a negative double maybe showing 4X♠. Ultiamtely I was looking for a ♥ stopper from my partner in the hope we could play 3N. My LHO passed and my partner bid 2♠.
At this point I scramble to 4♣ as i felt i could not bid NT but I probably got this wrong and appreciate that. My Partner then bids 4♥ so i bid 4N in hope my partner realises this is not asking for aces. Of course my partner responds to this (5♣) so i pass.
To summarise the bidding:
1C - 2H - X - P - 2S - P - 4C - P - 4H - 4N - P - 5C
Now I do appreciate my bidding probably wasnt the best but when my partner puts down his hand I find he is sittting there with AQx♥. He has a go at me telling me that we should be in NT and i felt that after my X a better bid would have been to show my the !♥ stopper.
I have two questions:
1st. What should have been my first repsone to my partner over the 2♥ bid?
2nd. Would 2N after my X from partner been a better bid?
partners hand was something like this
AJxx♠, AQX♥ Jx♦ Qxxx♣,
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Bidding some advice please on this hand
#2
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Posted 2004-August-07, 12:31
bowbells, on Aug 7 2004, 05:51 PM, said:
Hi all
Playing sayc with an unkown partner. In first seat he opens 1♣, Opps over bid with weak 2♥
I am holding this:
AKx♠ Jxx♥ Ax♦ Jxxxx♣,
We hadn't discussed anything so i simply doubled to show support but appreciate this can be seen as a negative double maybe showing 4X♠. Ultiamtely I was looking for a ♥ stopper from my partner in the hope we could play 3N. My LHO passed and my partner bid 2♠.
At this point I scramble to 4♣ as i felt i could not bid NT but I probably got this wrong and appreciate that. My Partner then bids 4♥ so i bid 4N in hope my partner realises this is not asking for aces. Of course my partner responds to this (5♣) so i pass.
To summarise the bidding:
1C - 2H - X - P - 2S - P - 4C - P - 4H - 4N - P - 5C
Now I do appreciate my bidding probably wasnt the best but when my partner puts down his hand I find he is sittting there with AQx♥. He has a go at me telling me that we should be in NT and i felt that after my X a better bid would have been to show my the !♥ stopper.
I have two questions:
1st. What should have been my first repsone to my partner over the 2♥ bid?
2nd. Would 2N after my X from partner been a better bid?
partners hand was something like this
AJxx♠, AQX♥ Jx♦ Qxxx♣,
Playing sayc with an unkown partner. In first seat he opens 1♣, Opps over bid with weak 2♥
I am holding this:
AKx♠ Jxx♥ Ax♦ Jxxxx♣,
We hadn't discussed anything so i simply doubled to show support but appreciate this can be seen as a negative double maybe showing 4X♠. Ultiamtely I was looking for a ♥ stopper from my partner in the hope we could play 3N. My LHO passed and my partner bid 2♠.
At this point I scramble to 4♣ as i felt i could not bid NT but I probably got this wrong and appreciate that. My Partner then bids 4♥ so i bid 4N in hope my partner realises this is not asking for aces. Of course my partner responds to this (5♣) so i pass.
To summarise the bidding:
1C - 2H - X - P - 2S - P - 4C - P - 4H - 4N - P - 5C
Now I do appreciate my bidding probably wasnt the best but when my partner puts down his hand I find he is sittting there with AQx♥. He has a go at me telling me that we should be in NT and i felt that after my X a better bid would have been to show my the !♥ stopper.
I have two questions:
1st. What should have been my first repsone to my partner over the 2♥ bid?
2nd. Would 2N after my X from partner been a better bid?
partners hand was something like this
AJxx♠, AQX♥ Jx♦ Qxxx♣,
Traditionally the bid which shows support for partner (and a strong hand) is a cue-bid - here 3♥. After this, partner can bid 3NT because of the double stop.
Because the double promises ♠ (according to the ACBL's SAYC leaflet, a negative double up to the level of 2♠ promises 4 cards in an unbid major), your partner wasn't wrong to show the ♠ support. However, you must have one of the hands wrong as both players have the ♠A. If partner's spades are very weak, then certainly a case can be made for his bidding 2NT rather than 2♠.
Eric
#3
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Posted 2004-August-07, 13:07
Why did your partner put his hand down? He opened 1C.
While the 3H cue-bid is fairly standard among advanced and expert players, this is the B&I forum and I intend to answer the question as such. If you were playing with your peers and you bid 3H, it's likely to be misunderstood. A beginner would think you had hearts (despite the 2H bid), and some intermediate players might think you were cue-bidding for slam.
So, cue bid 3H only if you think partner will understand...
The beginners with just a few lessons under their belt would say, "We have a game. We have no fit in a major. It's my job to get to geme.", and just bid 3NT or 5C. If any relatively new player did that, I would understand. Either of these is a better bid than 3C, which the beginners that didn't think about game at all would bid.
As the newer player learns more, they realize that:
(1) bidding notrump when the opponents have bid shows a stopper in their suit, and
(2) sometimes you don't have a good bid but want to make a forcing bid so you have to make up a suit to bid. Minors are less likely to be taken seriously than majors which can easily be raised.
On this hand, making up a 2S bid (showing 5!) is likely to get you to spades (while it might work fine on other hands), while making up a 3D bid probably will get the desired result. If partner bids notrump, fine. If partner raises diamonds, you bid clubs. You might have to correct 5D to 6C which is bad, but it's better than having partner pass or raise your cue-bid. So, I guess my answer is: if you don't think 3H will be understood by partner, make up a new suit.
While the 3H cue-bid is fairly standard among advanced and expert players, this is the B&I forum and I intend to answer the question as such. If you were playing with your peers and you bid 3H, it's likely to be misunderstood. A beginner would think you had hearts (despite the 2H bid), and some intermediate players might think you were cue-bidding for slam.
So, cue bid 3H only if you think partner will understand...
The beginners with just a few lessons under their belt would say, "We have a game. We have no fit in a major. It's my job to get to geme.", and just bid 3NT or 5C. If any relatively new player did that, I would understand. Either of these is a better bid than 3C, which the beginners that didn't think about game at all would bid.
As the newer player learns more, they realize that:
(1) bidding notrump when the opponents have bid shows a stopper in their suit, and
(2) sometimes you don't have a good bid but want to make a forcing bid so you have to make up a suit to bid. Minors are less likely to be taken seriously than majors which can easily be raised.
On this hand, making up a 2S bid (showing 5!) is likely to get you to spades (while it might work fine on other hands), while making up a 3D bid probably will get the desired result. If partner bids notrump, fine. If partner raises diamonds, you bid clubs. You might have to correct 5D to 6C which is bad, but it's better than having partner pass or raise your cue-bid. So, I guess my answer is: if you don't think 3H will be understood by partner, make up a new suit.
I tend to lead fourth best - as opposed to the best suit, the second best suit, or the third best suit for our side
#4
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Posted 2004-August-07, 14:02
Hi bowbells
I think that 3H is a better bid than double on your hand.
I would have bid 2S rather than 2N with your partner's hand (opposite double).
I would have read your 4C as a cue bid slam try agreeing Spades. With your partner's hand I would have been discouraged and bid 4S rather than 4N
Having said all that there are two Aces of Spades in the hands that you posted, so I am not sure about any of the above.
Most players who do not play penalty doubles of weak 2 overcalls play double (here) as showing 4 Spades rather than support for Clubs (although tolerance for Clubs might be expected).
Expecting a 4-4 Spade fit, and opposite a double that need not hold more than 8 (or so) high card points, I think it sensible to bid 2S to show the fit rather than 2N to accentuate the Heart guard. If doubler can move again over 2S then usually 3NT will be available and it will be appopriate then to show the guard.
Having doubled, I think that converting 2S to 3C rather than 4C might leave open the opportunity to play in 3N. Double then 3C shows a stronger hand than an immediate 3C, but with the extra Spade Ace in the pack I am not sure ... you may be too strong for a mere 3C after doubling but as I say if the double is wrong to start with, recovering from that may be a problem.
I think that 3H is a better bid than double on your hand.
I would have bid 2S rather than 2N with your partner's hand (opposite double).
I would have read your 4C as a cue bid slam try agreeing Spades. With your partner's hand I would have been discouraged and bid 4S rather than 4N
Having said all that there are two Aces of Spades in the hands that you posted, so I am not sure about any of the above.
Most players who do not play penalty doubles of weak 2 overcalls play double (here) as showing 4 Spades rather than support for Clubs (although tolerance for Clubs might be expected).
Expecting a 4-4 Spade fit, and opposite a double that need not hold more than 8 (or so) high card points, I think it sensible to bid 2S to show the fit rather than 2N to accentuate the Heart guard. If doubler can move again over 2S then usually 3NT will be available and it will be appopriate then to show the guard.
Having doubled, I think that converting 2S to 3C rather than 4C might leave open the opportunity to play in 3N. Double then 3C shows a stronger hand than an immediate 3C, but with the extra Spade Ace in the pack I am not sure ... you may be too strong for a mere 3C after doubling but as I say if the double is wrong to start with, recovering from that may be a problem.
Psych (pron. saik): A gross and deliberate misstatement of honour strength and/or suit length. Expressly permitted under Law 73E but forbidden contrary to that law by Acol club tourneys.
Psyche (pron. sahy-kee): The human soul, spirit or mind (derived, personification thereof, beloved of Eros, Greek myth).
Masterminding (pron. m
s
t
r-m
nd
ing) tr. v. - Any bid made by bridge player with which partner disagrees.
"Gentlemen, when the barrage lifts." 9th battalion, King's own Yorkshire light infantry,
2000 years earlier: "morituri te salutant"
"I will be with you, whatever". Blair to Bush, precursor to invasion of Iraq
Psyche (pron. sahy-kee): The human soul, spirit or mind (derived, personification thereof, beloved of Eros, Greek myth).
Masterminding (pron. m
str-mnding) tr. v. - Any bid made by bridge player with which partner disagrees."Gentlemen, when the barrage lifts." 9th battalion, King's own Yorkshire light infantry,
2000 years earlier: "morituri te salutant"
"I will be with you, whatever". Blair to Bush, precursor to invasion of Iraq
#5
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Posted 2004-August-07, 15:48
Thanks for your comments. I did consider the 3H cue bid at the time so I was on the right tracks at least.
I understand my eror on the 4C bid showing support for Spades although i am not clear as to when a jump bid in a different suit shows support for a suit or can be considered a cue bid. Can someone give me a couple of examples that may show support raises and other that my be cue's please. In saying that i do realise cue's are used once a fit has been found. Maybe I just after some examples of raises that show suit support!!!
I understand my eror on the 4C bid showing support for Spades although i am not clear as to when a jump bid in a different suit shows support for a suit or can be considered a cue bid. Can someone give me a couple of examples that may show support raises and other that my be cue's please. In saying that i do realise cue's are used once a fit has been found. Maybe I just after some examples of raises that show suit support!!!
#6
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Posted 2004-August-07, 19:07
♠♥With a beginner, I just bid 3NT.
With an intermediate player, I bid 3H. If he then bids 3S (no stopper) I correct to 4C. I don't have the strength to insist upon 5C.
I may disagree with SAYC on this (it's a philosophy question), but I don't play the double promises 4S. Instead, it asks partner if he has 4S. Regardless, there's no question that your partner should be bidding spades if he has 4 of them...and not necessarily at the two level. Depending upon how strong he is, he may bid 3 or even 4.
The three times when I negative double are:
1. I have 4 card support for the unbid major, and have tolerence for either opener's suit or the unbid suit.
2. I have 3 card support for the unbid major, and I want to play in it anyways. This is usually with 3064 distribution.
3. I have a serious interest in slam, and this is the best way to find it.
So, if I opened 1C, and I heard:
1♣ 2♥ X P
2♠ P 3♣
I would believe that was a slam try for either 6♣ or 6♠, and I'd start cue bidding.
If my partner bid 4♣ instead of 3♣, I'd take that as splinter in support of spades (club singleton) with my regular partners, or a massive double fit with a pickup partner. Either way, I'd take it as a slam try for 6♠.
Your partner, IMHO, bid it correctly if he really does have the spade ace.
Any time you've implied support for a suit, a jump shows support and either shortness (if you're playing splinters) or length (if you're not) in the suit bid. In SAYC, this generally comes up only after doubles and NT bids. If you're playing a system such as 2/1 or Precision, in any game forcing auction a jump shows a fit with shortness/length.
With an intermediate player, I bid 3H. If he then bids 3S (no stopper) I correct to 4C. I don't have the strength to insist upon 5C.
I may disagree with SAYC on this (it's a philosophy question), but I don't play the double promises 4S. Instead, it asks partner if he has 4S. Regardless, there's no question that your partner should be bidding spades if he has 4 of them...and not necessarily at the two level. Depending upon how strong he is, he may bid 3 or even 4.
The three times when I negative double are:
1. I have 4 card support for the unbid major, and have tolerence for either opener's suit or the unbid suit.
2. I have 3 card support for the unbid major, and I want to play in it anyways. This is usually with 3064 distribution.
3. I have a serious interest in slam, and this is the best way to find it.
So, if I opened 1C, and I heard:
1♣ 2♥ X P
2♠ P 3♣
I would believe that was a slam try for either 6♣ or 6♠, and I'd start cue bidding.
If my partner bid 4♣ instead of 3♣, I'd take that as splinter in support of spades (club singleton) with my regular partners, or a massive double fit with a pickup partner. Either way, I'd take it as a slam try for 6♠.
Your partner, IMHO, bid it correctly if he really does have the spade ace.
Quote
Maybe I just after some examples of raises that show suit support!!!
Any time you've implied support for a suit, a jump shows support and either shortness (if you're playing splinters) or length (if you're not) in the suit bid. In SAYC, this generally comes up only after doubles and NT bids. If you're playing a system such as 2/1 or Precision, in any game forcing auction a jump shows a fit with shortness/length.
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