[TimG]

JLOGIC, on Jul 13 2010, 09:20 AM, said:

Heh, interesting I never knew this was even questionable. Good thread. Maybe it's a regional thing, I don't recall ever hearing the first usage.

I was so sure the first is right that I thought you were just yanking gwnn's chain when you said it was obviously the second.

[jdonn]

I thought it meant AQ. If you have AKJ you are finessing FOR the queen, by finessing the jack. No? I guess I never thought about it since I always use the "for" terminology lol.

Wow the poll is tied. This is the hardest bridge problem we have yet come across.

Hey reading the thread maybe I'm wrong to say "for" and should say "against". Or maybe they mean the same thing even though they usually mean the opposite of each other. Now my head is spinning. Gwnn you always pose the deep important questions of our time and for that the world thanks you.

[mikegill]

I have always heard/said you finesse against the K by finessing the Q.

[Siegmund]

I too have heard both usages, but regarded #2 as a rather obscure oldfashionedism/Britishism/something-else-ism.

I expect "finesse the queen" to mean "lead towards the queen" and "finesse against the queen" or "finesse for the queen" to mean "lead towards the jack."

I never ever ever call leading Q from QJ toward the A "finessing." That is running the queen. (Yes, many books cover QJ-Ax and QJT-Axx in the same breath as lead-toward-style finessing. It's a damn nuisance that they do; once a beginner has heard it described that way, just see what happens when they have A32 opposite QJ54 and you tell them their best chance for 3 tricks to finesse.)

[jdonn]

Siegmund, on Jul 13 2010, 02:13 PM, said:

I never ever ever call leading Q from QJ toward the A "finessing." That is running the queen.

Um that is finessing!

[karlson]

I have always said "finesse the Q" for playing the Q from AQ, but having heard it often said the other way recently, I try to avoid the usage now.

[Pict]

From books about the old gambling game of 'solo whist' through Reese etc I have always understood 'finesse the Queen' to mean I was leading to a hand with AQ.

However, if I mention a card dummy doesn't have, any confusion would quickly be resolved between normal people, I would imagine.

[MickyB]

Siegmund, on Jul 13 2010, 07:13 PM, said:

once a beginner has heard it described that way, just see what happens when they have A32 opposite QJ54 and you tell them their best chance for 3 tricks to finesse.)

Why would you lie to them?

[cherdanno]

At the end of the day - let me guess -
we will all learn how to finesse
the transitive form of "finesse".

(Sorry 'bout that.)

[kfay]

I use the term both ways. Generally when thinking about it to myself I believe when I say 'finesse the Queen' I mean that my opponent holds the Queen.

I'm totally willing to accept that it means dummy has AQ and I play the Q (LHO holding the K), but I'll probably continue to use the term ambiguously.

[campboy]

It seems more normal among people I talk bridge with -- though of course that does not mean it is correct -- for the object of "finesse", when it is used transitively, to be the opponent being played for a particular card. Also, if I were to say "I finessed LHO's queen" (as opposed to "I finessed LHO for the queen") I would mean that the finesse was successful.

My copy of Fowler's doesn't have an entry on the topic

[shaztaz]

The second option is finessing against the queen or finessing the jack. The first is finessing the queen or finessing against the king.

[cloa513]

There is always AQ10 which can be finessed to win with the Queen or 10. So even if you say finesse then you need to say how deep. Maybe finesse to win with the Queen or 10 is better.

[dburn]

cloa513, on Jul 13 2010, 07:58 PM, said:

There is always AQ10 which can be finessed to win with the Queen or 10. So even if you say finesse then you need to say how deep. Maybe finesse to win with the Queen or 10 is better.

Funny you should say that. Excerpts from the OED that I did not quote earlier include:

Oxford English Dictionary said:

1885 PROCTOR Whist vii. 86 You may finesse more deeply in trumps than in plain suits.

1902 Encycl. Brit. XXVI. 371/1 (s.v. Bridge), Deep finesses should be made when there is no other way of stealing a trick.

Now, the unique (as far as I know) feature of the OED is that in order to reinforce its notions of what words mean, it strives to record the earliest written instance in which a word was used, and on that occasion to note that the word meant x.

It then records subsequent written instances of the word, perhaps used with meaning y instead (or at any rate with a meaning tending towards y as opposed to x). Only very occasionally do its editors make any definitive pronouncement at all as to what the word does, or "should", mean - they are recorders, not judges.

For all that, in discussing how one might play (for example)

xxxx

AQ10xx

for no loser, it seems to me easier to say "you should finesse the queen rather than the ten" than to say anything else.

[gnasher]

Burn's example explains why it would be useful to have a verb that means "take a finesse by playing card x". However, using "finesse" for this purpose seems inconsistent with the non-bridge meaning of the word.

The other definition given by the (free online) OED is "bring about or deal with (something) by using great delicacy and skill". When you play to the queen, the thing you are dealng with is LHO's king.

This non-bridge usage is well established. For example, from
a remarkable dull article on the BBC's website "Could they and the LibDems find a way this time to finesse that dividing point?" Or, from The Automobile, "the sheer reserve power to ... finesse the unexpected detour or delay."

[Echognome]

I always found it funny that we use the word "finesse", which seems of French origin (I'm sure Mr. Burn can help us confirm), when the French use the term "impasse". I also like in French how "impasse" and "expasse" seem to express related concepts, whereas in English we use "finesse" and "play for card x to be onside" or something else equally awkward.

[georgeac]

JLOGIC, on Jul 13 2010, 07:08 AM, said:

It means playing the jack. If you play low to the queen you're finessing the king!

this and only this.

[Fluffy]

in spannish we use impass as well, some do use expass as well, but normally people just use impass for everything.

however there is no doubt of what is being called normally, we say "impás a la dama" (finese to the queen) when we hope LHO has the queen, but "impasar la dama" (finese the queen) when we play the queen hopeing it holds.

[y66]

gnasher, on Jul 14 2010, 02:17 AM, said:

Burn's example explains why it would be useful to have a verb that means "take a finesse by playing card x".  However, using "finesse" for this purpose seems inconsistent with the non-bridge meaning of the word.

The other definition given by the (free online) OED is "bring about or deal with (something) by using great delicacy and skill".  When you play to the queen, the thing you are dealng with is LHO's king.

This non-bridge usage is well established.  For example, from
a remarkable dull article on the BBC's website "Could they and the LibDems find a way this time to finesse that dividing point?"  Or, from The Automobile, "the sheer reserve power to ... finesse  the unexpected detour or delay."

In Larry Dorman's account of Dustin Johnson's demise at Pebble Beach last month, the thing finessed is the thing played:

Quote

2010 New York Times It all started with a loose shot with a 52-degree wedge after a mammoth drive down the 502-yard, par-4 second hole. Rather than aggressively go for the pin, as he had all week, he tried to finesse the shot, and it wound up in a bad lie in the tall fescue beyond the right bunker.

This example of more common usage appeared in the paper today:

Quote

2010 New York Times Holding the securities could cost the Fed a lot of money and hamper its ability to fight inflation, while selling the securities could drain needed money from the still-weak economy.

Fed officials have expressed confidence that they can finesse the dilemma by gradually selling the securities as the economy starts to recover. But they are not eager to expand the challenge they face by beginning a new round of asset-buying, one tool the Fed could use to try to stimulate growth.

Ah, finesse — can we have our cake and eat it, too? We’ll see.

[FrancesHinden]

I realise reading this that, although I voted immediately and confidently for the first option, in actual speech I almost never use finesse as a transitive verb.

I finesse against the king
I finesse through LHO
I take the spade finesse

For a suit such as AQ10xx low cards xxx if someone asked me how the play had gone, I simply wouldn't think to say "I finessed the 10", instead I say "I played to the 10", or "started with low to the 10"

Similarly with AQ10xx opposite J98 I don't finesse the jack, I run the jack.

Thinking of what other people say I'm not sure I ever hear it used transitively.

I've certainly never heard it used in the sense of the second option in the poll.