[hanp]

In gameforcing auctions I like to play "frivolous". When we have found a major suit fit at the 3-level, the next step denies serious extras, and all cues show extras. But what if we find a fit at the 2-level?

Unlike Rexford, I'm a big fan of patterning out with opener's hand. Suppose the auction starts with

1S - 2D
2H - 2S
3C

Responder's 2S promised 3-card support, and 3D suggests 5413 shape. What should responder's bids mean here?

In keeping with frivolous, it makes sense to immediately clarify whether responder is minimal or not. Most importantly, the auction can then end quickly if opener is also minimal. Therefore I would suggest playing:

3D = minimal.
3H = cuebid, extras.
3S = no heart cue, diamond cue, extras.
3NT = suggestion to play 3NT.


The idea applies to all auctions where the fit is found at the 2-level and opener patterns out. If opener patterns out by bidding 3S (showing a 6-card spade suit), I suggest using 3NT as frivolous and giving up on the possibility of play 3NT.

Thoughts?

[pooltuna]

hanp, on Jul 4 2010, 09:10 AM, said:

In gameforcing auctions I like to play "frivolous". When we have found a major suit fit at the 3-level, the next bid denies serious extras, and all cues show extras. But what if we find a fit at the 2-level?

I know English is not your primary language and as attempt to constructively improve your wording I suggest you use "next step" or "first step" instead of "next bid". IMO the latter implies anything between partner's last call and 7NT whereas the "next step" in context implies the next highest call after partner's last call. If you think I am overstepping my bounds please say so and it won't happen again (at least not in the same way )

[hanp]

Thanks Tuna, will edit the initial post.

[kayin801]

It definitely works on this auction and overall I like it, but does it get messy on some auctions where double fits exist and we might be looking for slam in a different strain? For example:

1♠-2♣
2♦-2♠
3♣-3♦

(maybe responder has Kxx, AQ, Kxxx, QJxx or some such, idk)

Is 3♦ natural confirming the double (triple?!) fit or showing a minimum hand here? It could be that there are less auctions like this where it's confusing (to me) and more where it is useful though.

[gnasher]

That seems sensible enough in the origianlly-posted sequence, except that opener shows an unbalanced hand I'd give up the idea of playing in 3NT, on the grounds that you'll so rarely both want to bid it and gain from doing so. I'd use 3NT as a serious diamond cue-bid.

Kayin801's point suggests an improvement, though. In his auction 3♦ should be natural and 3♥ the artificial bid. That suggests a general solution: use the lower of fourth suit and 3NT to show a non-serious hand, which ties in nicely with what most of us do opposite a two-level reverse.

Also, since apparently we're allowed to be picky about your English, "frivolous" is the wrong word for what you describe. "Frivolous" means "not having any serious purpose or value", and implies a degree of silliness. A better description would be "non-serious".

(I'm not suggesting that this is anything to do with your being Dutch - I'm sure that the erroneous usage originated somewhere in the English-speaking world.)

[Phil]

I've used the rule: "No cue bidding before 3 of our major, but its fine if it starts with responder's 2nd call I think".

3♦ as a frivolous minimum is an interesting idea. Patterning by responder is kind of pointless at this point. Then 3♥ can be a serious cue as you mention. Similarly, 3♠ can now be a trump cue as I play in some partnerships which also shows 2/3.

This can help you stay out some slams, but with a little refinement and some rules, it also can get the partnership back to another strain when both sides have extras, but we are missing trump honors in our primary suit.

I don't think Kayins auction is really messy at all and the rule can work well there too. Like another thread, how many trump fits do we need to explore in these auctions?

[hanp]

No cue bidding before 3 of our major, but its fine if it starts with responder's 2nd call I think

Great rule, maybe I will update my signature.

[Phil]

hanp, on Jul 4 2010, 10:46 AM, said:

No cue bidding before 3 of our major, but its fine if it starts with responder's 2nd call I think

Great rule, maybe I will update my signature.

Obviously I haven't had my coffee yet.

Move the quotes around

[gnasher]

Phil, on Jul 4 2010, 04:44 PM, said:

I don't think Kayins auction is really messy at all and the rule can work well there too. Like another thread, how many trump fits do we need to explore in these auctions?

The main purpose of a natural 3♦ is to explore how well the hands fit.

[hanp]

Of course both players can show their complete shape and in some particular auctions such as this one it doesn't take up that much room. In general though, it always made more sense to me that after opener has patterned out, we start cuebidding. It's also fairly rare that to have a fit in three suits and to both have heart shortness, especially with the opponents passing.

[whereagles]

I actually have these sequences discussed somewhere in my pet system... let me see what I dig... here it is:

1M 2x
2y ??

2M = 3 cards, slammish
3M = 3 cards, interested in game only
4M = picture bid
3NT = RKCB. This bid is not needed as frivolous because that's what 3M basically is.

After 2M opener bids:
- non-trump suit: values, with slam interest
- 3M: no slam interest, but willing to cooperate if resp wants
- 4M: no slam interest, very bad controls
- jump: cue with slam interest

After 3M opener bids:
- 3NT: RKCB
- 4x: cue

This is based on fast arrival but can be maximized, obviously.

[jdonn]

I have always played that responder can continues showing shape as well just so both players could make better judgments when the cuebidding finally starts. I don't really see much edge gained from responder showing a minimum early and thus hiding an extra piece of information about his shape once we have already told them this much, but I can easily see gain from responder bidding 3♥ over 3♣ to show 3415 shape and opener thus knowing about the diamond shortage. Showing frivolous interest will still be available on the next round.

Perhaps a bid like 3♦ here that implies shortage in a suit where opener has already implied it could be artificially used to show 6 cards in responder's minor or something like that. But I doubt I could be bothered with playing such a thing. Ultimately I just think it's easiest to play both players show shape until 3 of the major is reached since it's easy and I doubt is any worse than what you are suggesting.

[kayin801]

True, odds are if we have a triple fit they should be bidding hearts, and I don't know what style you play with regards to rebidding 2♣ here, but if you, for example (referring back to my example auction), would bid 2♣ on 3=4=4=2, then this auction is reasonable to play as natural, and if you're on the way to slam you might end up wanting to play in diamonds in the 4-4 fit instead.

I could buy that if you've now promised a real suit with your 2/1 call that 3♦ should be artificial because now the odds of you having a diamond fit on top of a club and spade fit aren't so good.

I only mention this because I know I'm more likely to leave in 6♦ later on in a slam auction if we confirm diamonds as a second fit earlier, not to mention knowing we have an actual double fit is just as good as being able to make a forward-going cue in diamonds for spades sometimes. (Just a comfort thing for me, maybe you're all set on that)

[OleBerg]

As long as only a 5-3 fit is discovered, I'd always want the option to play 3NT.

[cherdanno]

If you play relays after 1M-2C, is 1S 2D 2H 2S the only auction where this applies?
Anyway, I think cue-bidding with little discussion on this auction (after opener's next bid) beats shape-showing by responder, as shape-showing usually bids 3S without saying all that much about responder's shape. And cue-bidding with non-serious as the next step beats cuebidding. And cue-bidding with non-serious and immediate 3NT as to play beats cue-bidding with non-serious and some artificial meaning for 3NT (especially when opener rerebids 2N or 3C).