[Yzerman]

I play a 2/1 variation that is popular in DC and is maintained by Steve Robinson.  My partner and I adopted this variation after witnessing a horrible slam bid by opponents in an NYC regional a few years back.  We decided the hand the opps bid was a problem hand for aggresive bidders and decided to play this system and have consulted with Steve for some problem scenarios.  We call the system DC standard for many of the DC players refer to it as this although I am not sure if it has an official name.

The 2/1 variant is that 2C could be ANY balanced 2/1 game forcing hand that is too strong for 1NT forcing and not contains a biddable suit.  Obviously, this type of bidding requires ALOT of discussion beforehand to iron out rebids and constructive auctions.

*** I wanted to start a thread to discuss this treatment, get some feedback, listen to any advice or alterations, and find some "experts" on the treatment.

The hand in question from the NYC regional was a double fit hand (S + D) and subsequently started a 2/1 auction with 1S - 2D (incidently, the pair is a well known, established, recognized, and GOOD partnership).  The opener had "extras" with AJx diamonds and (imho) went bananas with his hand.  They subsequently agreed on diamonds as trump overbid to 6D when it turned out the 2/1 response was made on 5 small diamonds.  Even 109xxx (or even 10xxxx) would have given this contract a play but was doomed when he had 5 baby.

Here are some questions perhaps some people can answer (obviously judgement is numero uno with these, but are there any systemic ways to account for these);

How do other partnerships handle 2/1 with bad suits?

How to control auctions that start with 2/1 response with bad suits?

We use 2C 2/1 response as COULD be a balanced game forcing hand without a BIDDABLE 5 card suit.  We have agreed that biddable is a suit that CAN be playable opposite 3 small for 2 losers assuming 3/2 break in suit (Hence Qxxxx is not biddable, Q10xxx is biddable).  Some restrictions must be placed in openers rebids to account for this (raises of 2C-3C MUST have extras AND 4 clubs).  We utilize a 2NT asking bid by responder (obviously must have an appropriate hand to play 3NT from that side OR 'direction' in the hand).  We also utilize fragment bidding after the 2NT asking bid such as to NOT lose a red suit fit WHEN responder has replied 2C with a 'bad' 5 card red suit.  We also utilize artificial delayed club raises to describe minimum hands with 3 or 4 clubs that were not good enough for direct 3C rebids.  These are some of the conditional restrictions we have systemically created to allow for some of the obviousl problem hands that may occur however we have generally refined the system such that many local players in our area are now playing variants of what we described (although most people have not put time in to come to some of the more in depth agreements we have).

[Codo]

Hi Yzerman,

Germanys best pair (Auken-v.Armin) uses this tool too.
They bid 2 Club with any game forcing hand.
But, like you wrote, you need a lot of discussion before you are able to use this tool.

Anyway, I can hardly believe, that there is a big problem in avoiding slams with AJ9 opps. xxxxx even in any regular natural system. There is a convention called RCKB. While used with the minors, you better play it that way, that  4 in that minor is the asking bid. Then you can easily reach 5 Diamond with a Key Card and the Diamond queen missing.

And that is an easier way then adopting a complete scientific approach via 2 Club. (Even if the way via 2 Club is better if discussed properly)

Kind Regards

Roland

[Yzerman]

Like I said, there is NO system in the world that will compensate for poor judgment.

The hand in question was a problem in that the opps located the double S/D fit and used RKC in the spade suit to get to diamonds.  The opener subsquently captained the auction after the 2D 2/1 and opted for RKC in spaded assuming partner had at least one honor for the 2/1 in diamonds and trying to discover any spade problem there may be on hand (assuming that diamonds cant possibly be a problem when he held AJx).

[the hog]

Strong argument here that 2/1s should show a good suit. With a bad/average suit or a flat hand go via 2NT. In other words, give up Jacoby 2NT and play some other sort of forcing raise.
However, that does not solve the following problem:
1S and you hold
x
AKJ
xxxxx
AJxx

2NT seems a weird bid on this, and yet if 2D HAS to show a good suit what do you bid?

How would the 2C structure you play handle this?

[pbleighton]

"However, that does not solve the following problem:
1S and you hold
x
AKJ
xxxxx
AJxx

2NT seems a weird bid on this, and yet if 2D HAS to show a good suit what do you bid?

How would the 2C structure you play handle this?"

This may be totally impractical, but what about utiilizing one the of jump shifts (the cheapest would probably be a Jacoby 2NT equivalent) to show 3 suiters with a stiff or void in the opener's suit, with none of the suits being biddable.  I don't know if there would be room for a relay to clarify exact distribution, as there would be in a Precision 2D response which allows 5431 shapes, but at least the 2NT response could then guarantee 2 of the opener's suit.

BTW, if pard bids 1S, and you hold 5 small hearts and GF values, would you suppress the hearts?

[Yzerman]

Quote

Strong argument here that 2/1s should show a good suit. With a bad/average suit or a flat hand go via 2NT. In other words, give up Jacoby 2NT and play some other sort of forcing raise.
However, that does not solve the following problem:
1S and you hold
x
AKJ
xxxxx
AJxx

2NT seems a weird bid on this, and yet if 2D HAS to show a good suit what do you bid?

How would the 2C structure you play handle this?

This is the precise hand that this system is tailored to.  If I held that hand and I was playing "our" system here would be my bidding "plan" (first some system features).

* Logic is this hand requires a 9 cd+ fit to make slam on marginal values

* System still allow for finding 8 cd diamond fit

* When 8 cd diamond fit, system allow for finding his doubleton, such to know which suit you may be tapped in dummy with the GOOD TRUMPS (VERY IMPORTANT)

1) I will make 2C 2/1
2) IF partner raise 2C->3C;
.........a) I know he has good hand w/4 trumps
......... Initiate cue-bidding to isolate diamond problem
3) IF partner bid 2D over 2C
.........*a) I have a lovely fitting hand and will raise 3D
......... Partner will cue bid with forward going hand
.........c) Partner will bid 3N with min or slam problem
.........d) Since I have heart cards, 3H by him is try for 3N or a stiff heart (which drills my hand, hence i bid 3N)
.........e) Rebid 3S with 6+x4y, cue bid, or nebulous
.........f) Rebid 4C as delayed club raise, descriptive
.........g) Rebid 4D RKC (I would expect this if partner looking for slam since he likely to have good trumps).
4) IF partner bid 2H over 2C
.........a) I will emply our 2N asking feature
......... Partner will bid 3N with 5422 min/intermediate
.........c) Partner will bid 3C with 5413 (inference = min)
.........d) Partner will bid 3D with 5431 (good diamonds)
.........e) Partner will bid 3H or 3S with appropriate hand
5) IF partner bid 2S over 2C (2S is nebulous)
.........a) I will emply our 2N asking feature
......... 3C is delayed raise (inference = min)
.........c) 3D, 3H is good 3 cd fragment
.........d) 3S is good 6 + carder spades
6) If partner bid 2N over 2C (descriptive 12+-16-)
.........a) I will forego slam
......... Although slam possible, I dont like my hand opposite 12-16 balanced with no 8 cd C fit or 9 cd D fit
7) If partner bid 3N over 2C (descriptive 15+-18-, xx or xxx clubs)
.........a) I will make slam try in diamonds (4D)

I am quite comfortable with these bids and have grown very trusting in this style over the last few years.  The system is structured that I when I captain an auction much like these, I will inherently have a good visualization of partners hand from both what he HAS bid and from he HAS NOT bid.  My partner and I are amazed sometimes that the other will describe the dummy to the exact pattern and hcp holdings before it his the table (AND we dont officially use relays or any of that nonsense).

* Note of 3a - Some players advocate that 3D is a raise with at least good diamond otherwise you bid through fourth suit (2H) then raise diamonds to show this hand (good control structure with poor diamonds).  I WOULD LOVE TO PLEASE HEAR SOME COMMENTS ON THIS!!!!

[inquiry]

I agree 100% that a two over one response has to be in a biddable 5 card suit. That is, I never respond 2/1 game force on a four or three card suit to create a game forcing auction.

This causes a number of problems. The first of which is hands like the slam Yzerman mentioned in NYC or bidding problems with the hand The_Hog.

This is not a new topic, per se. In "improving 2/1, part I" Fred Gitelman addresses just this problem and recommends doing away with Jacoby 2NT and using 2NT to show a balanced hand, game forcing values that may or maynot include support. A variety of system use 2C as either a real 2/1 Game force with a biddable club suit, or a balanced 2/1 Game force that doesn't have to include even a four card suit. I have even seen 2C as game force relay to 2D, and responder then shows his intent with his next bid.

Each solution, except perhaps a natural and forcing 2N, suffers from a flaw of the loss of the natural auction. If you bid 2C when holding five clubs and some support for partner, and partner can not raise with with say three to the KJx, you lose a number of important bidding options... For instance, is

1H-2C
2H-4H     Is this a picture bid? PFA?

you might say, well with clubs, rebid clubs first, then support hearts....but

1H-2C
2H-3C
4C-4H

Does responder have 6C or only 5? Is 4H an attempt now to play a 6-2 heart fit rather than go to the five level in a 5-3 club fit?  

Other problems

1S-2C        
2H-3H   (does north have a club suit or not?)

And it the opponent can interfer, they might cause more problems if you don't know if your partner has clubs or not.

So while I agree 100% that 2 over 1 HAS TO BE IN A BIDDABLE five card suit, I am still open to how to achieve this goal. Should you use 2NT for balanced hands (that can include yucky 5 cards suits and maybe stiff in partners suit), do you include hands up to 15 hcp in your forcing 1NT response if a biddable five card suit is not avaiable, or do you create a multi-meaing 2C bid. I would go with anyone of these options as opposed to bidding 2/1 on less than a biddable five card suit.

Ben

[Yzerman]

1H-2C
2H-4H     Is this a picture bid? PFA?  

**  We play this as classic picture (no outside control)

1H-2C
2H-3C
4C-4H  

** This is x2+y6 hand without a diamond cue (or min with diamond cue but non cooperation)

We have a unique way of differentiating hand both as responder and opener.  In the second auction above, 2H may only be a decent 5+ card heart suit.  We NEVER now freely raise hearts with honor-x or xxx.  We use a 2NT asking bid by responder for further description of hand from opener.  Here are some examples;

1H-2C
2H-2N*
3C**-3H***

* Asking bid
** Delayed 3/4 card club raise
*** Delayed H raise (xxx or honor-x)

1H-2C
2H-3H*
3N**

* Responders hand still ambiguous (mild slam try+ but not known if balanced 2/1 or clubs/heart although you have the negative picture inference (if clubs/hearts there is outside control) - I am HUGE into negative inference)
** This is delayed club raise

1H-2C
2H-3H
3N-4C*

*RKC Clubs (4N is RKC hearts , 4D and 4S cuebids with H as trumps)

1H-2C
2H-3H
4C*

* This is cue bid (A or K) in club suit hearts trump (this recent modification has paid HUGE dividends recently when reponder has KQxxx, AQxxx, Axxxxx, Kxxxxx or the like now NO club losers had been identified in the source of tricks)

1H-2C
2H-2N*
3D**

* Asking bid
** 3D is GOOD fragment (3532 or 2632 or 3631)

These auctions have removed the ambiguity AND helped each partner solve the problem of "is this natural bidding or artificial bidding".  There are 2 key bids in these sequences (a) the 2N asking bid and ( the 3N delayed club raise after M suit raise.  We have played 2N since the beginning of time, but had a rare occasion that the auction 1H-2C-2H-3H was a problem (believe it or not, Stevie Robinson did NOT method off hand to solve).  So we created the 3N artificial delayed club raise and reserve 4C as a cue bid (this is GREAT).  We had never played serious 3NT we did not compromise anything.

Another VERY important tool available the opening bid is 1H and you have the balanced 12-14 hand but no biddable suit (or bad 5cd suit w or w/out H support) is the impossible 2S bid after a forcing NT.  Many players forget about this option, hence you can expand its traditoinal meaning for all kinds of "stuff".  I utilize this bid 1000% more than the average user for I have found it invaluable.  This obviously does not solve the 1S openers.

[the hog]

Have had a good look at your 1M-2C structure and continuations and like it a lot. Pd and I bid quite a few simulated hands last night using this to get a feel for it. If we were still playing 2/1, we would give some thought to using it. Would obviously require a lot of work, not to get right, but to be aware of the inferences available to opener and responder.

[Yzerman]

** This getting good now

Just brief comment on the 2NT bid as game force balanced.  In tandem with this 2C 2/1 structure, perhaps some people could comment on the "new" or "old" jacoby 2nt structure.  I have found that the new is very effective with the 2C 2/1 (with the 3C response and subsequent relay).

* Since 2C may be balanced, 2NT has no value hence the 4 card Major raise becomes of much more value.

Perhaps someone could comment on this and/or other way combinations of conventions that may be effective.

[the hog]

Perhaps a bit of background may help. We started playing 2/1 at the beginning of 02 and played it for a year, having come from an Acol and a big club relay background. Consequently we experimented a lot with 2/1 to see what worked for us and what didn't.

2NT - started off as Jacoby. I hated this. Went to Martel-Stansby structure which we both quite liked and then adopted Fred's suggestions eg 2nt = bal 13-15 or 18+

We had problems with the sort of hand I posted a few days ago - gf values but a bad 5 card suit. In the end we decided to bid an off shape 2nt to keep the "purity" of the 2/1 responses. That is why I really like your 2C structure and as I said, would probably play it if we were still playing 2/1. (Have gone back to Moscito).

Now that 2NT is back on the agenda as a Major suit raise - the structure I have looked at a bit and quite like is Danny Kleinmann's Boss Raises. See Bridge World Nov 1999 for a full description.

1M     2NT
4M     sign off
New suit  Control bid in a suit that can be a source of tricks
3NT    D void or void in other M (4C asks)
4C      C void
4D      RKCB

1M  2NT
3M       asks for s/t or dbtn
           Now..4M = 4333
                    new suit except step = stn
                    step = any xx - now next step asks

If you assume that 2NT will be bid with 4333/4432s and will deny a decent 5 card suit you would bid a 2/1 with, the above described structure gives opener a lot of options in the auction.