[hanp]

andy_h, on Jun 23 2010, 03:18 AM, said:

If partner bids 2C (which should contain 5332's) I'm bidding 2D.

I don't like that, it's matchpoints and if 2S makes 2D is often going to score very badly.

By the way, playing gazilli or bart would often prevent partner from making a third call.

[the hog]

hanp, on Jun 24 2010, 12:38 AM, said:

The_Hog, on Jun 23 2010, 02:05 AM, said:

I pass. It is only difficult for the opps not to see the cards in their hands if you are playing against children.

OK, please tell us how the grown-ups bid.

Say you have a 13-count 3-3-4-3 shape with Kxx in spades. What do you do after 1S passed around to you? And what do you do after 1S - p - 1NT?

Do you bid 2C on the same hands after 1S - p - p as after 1S - p - 1NT? Do you require the same strength for a takeout double?

If not on this hand, would you ever let vulnerability guide you to respond to a 1-level opening?

The first hand would be a pretty clear 1NT, would it not? By the way, we played this as 11-16 in the protective seat, with x followed by NT as 17-18.
If it goes (1S) P (1N) and I hold that hand, I would pass. I would expect pd to protect with values. Certainly, I agree that bal hands are more of a problem than hands where you have a genuine suit to bid. Hoever, you don't always have a balanced hand.

One further point - not that it applies to this hand - I would overcall immediately on many hands where many posters here would pass and think that is a clear decision.

"Do you bid 2C on the same hands after 1S - p - p as after 1S - p - 1NT?"
Yes, 2C here for me would show a decent suit. I would certainly not bid it on some of the hands some posters bid 2m on.
Han, what I find a bit laughable are the comments like McPhee's that 1NT may make it difficult to bid; as if the 1NT bid automatically hides the honour cards you hold in your hand - hence my comment.

"If not on this hand, would you ever let vulnerability guide you to respond to a 1-level opening?"
No. My responses, or lack of them in this case, would be the same. Mind you, IF I were playing a big C system, my answers would probably be different. What I am concerned about is sequences like:

1S 1NT
2NT etc. The 1NT responders are ignoring their potential losses on hands where opener is strong.

[jdonn]

Passing is really bad IMO. This hand is worth 6 anyway.

And what makes you think bidders are ignoring their potential losses?

[the hog]

jdonn, on Jun 24 2010, 07:29 AM, said:

Passing is really bad IMO. This hand is worth 6 anyway.

And what makes you think bidders are ignoring their potential losses?

Sorry Josh, I didn't realise you enjoy masochism. Imo bidding is really poor.

[eyhung]

The_Hog, on Jun 23 2010, 05:47 PM, said:

jdonn, on Jun 24 2010, 07:29 AM, said:

Passing is really bad IMO. This hand is worth 6 anyway.

And what makes you think bidders are ignoring their potential losses?

Sorry Josh, I didn't realise you enjoy masochism. Imo bidding is really poor.

And IMO passing is really poor. You're white at MP. You're playing the form of game where, if you go down 1 or 2 undoubled, you can get a great score, and where frequency of correctness is more important than magnitude. For every time partner ends up overbidding as a result of your response and you end up going down 1 against nothing, you will find multiple heart partials, better diamond partials,, steal the opponent's partial/game, find a nice sac against their partial, or find a NV game. Bidding has many common ways to win, pass relatively few. White matchpoints is a bidder's game -- make the percentage call : 1NT.

[jdonn]

The_Hog, on Jun 23 2010, 07:47 PM, said:

jdonn, on Jun 24 2010, 07:29 AM, said:

Passing is really bad IMO. This hand is worth 6 anyway.

And what makes you think bidders are ignoring their potential losses?

Sorry Josh, I didn't realise you enjoy masochism. Imo bidding is really poor.

Is the implication that bidding has no potential gains or that passing has no potential losses? If either of those then I know what ridiculous claim I should dispute. If neither of those then I don't understand what you mean by masochism, other than perhaps my participation in this thread.

[bluecalm]

Passing is awful. LOL. It's bid from old books. "You need 6hcp" they say and then you go to play bridge and you see that all the winners are always bidding with such hands...

I bid even playing standard (but it sucks that partner may force to game with 17 or so but that the cost of playing standard). Playing some reasonable system (precision or std with gazilli or even polish club) bidding may only gain and there is basically nothing to lose.

I refuse to play any system or with any partner which makes me pass this non vul.

[the hog]

"I refuse to play any system or with any partner which makes me pass this non vul."

Well you are going to have trouble finding good partners.

[eyhung]

As the thread shows, he'll have no trouble finding good partners. What he'll have trouble with is finding partners who bid with your style.

[rogerclee]

I think most players would concede that there are regions of the world where this is a normal pass and there are regions of the world where this is a normal 1N. The_Hog, I don't know why you need to be so dogmatic about it.

[pooltuna]

rogerclee, on Jun 24 2010, 04:29 AM, said:

I think most players would concede that there are regions of the world where this is a normal pass and there are regions of the world where this is a normal 1N. The_Hog, I don't know why you need to be so dogmatic about it.

Congratulations our your strong resistance. If I had written it I am sure I wouldn't have been able to resist and I would have said "I don't know why you need to be so hogmatic about it."

[ArtK78]

As I mentioned in a previous post, I think this is a pass. But I would not argue strongly against taking a call on the hand.

I played with a well known player in a North American Championship some years back (less than 10). It was a first time partnership, and we did reasonably well. One thing he told me was that he had a rule about responding on less than 6 HCP. The rule was don't. This was an absolute. I asked him about distributional hands. He said he did not want to discuss it, this was his rule and I had to live with it.

I have to admit that we had good results when we passed a one bid, and we had good results when we responded on minimum hands. So, while it is clear that many fine players do respond routinely on less than 6 HCP, it is not universal and there are fine players who will pass routinely when holding less than 6 HCP.

[hanp]

Of course there are many fine players who pass with hands such as this, nobody is disputing that. It does seem that the top players in the world championships are responding quite lightly, but there are certainly some that do not.

I am not sure that Roger is right when he says that

Quote

I think most players would concede that there are regions of the world where this is a normal pass

Which regions are those Roger?

[neilkaz]

The_Hog, on Jun 24 2010, 01:34 AM, said:

"I refuse to play any system or with any partner which makes me pass this non vul."

Well you are going to have trouble finding good partners.

I think if you watch the team trials from the USA currently on Vugraph I think you'll see a clear majority of players bidding with this hand.

And, yes I am referring to those who play 2/1.

1NT for me. .. neilkaz ..

[rogerclee]

hanp, on Jun 24 2010, 07:52 AM, said:

I am not sure that Roger is right when he says that

Quote

I think most players would concede that there are regions of the world where this is a normal pass

Which regions are those Roger?

Poland was the one I was thinking of, but it is in the context of a lower 1M upper range, so it's not an ideal example. I also thought it was normal in many Asian countries to pass with less than 6, but many of these pairs are playing strong club.

[junyi_zhu]

dickiegera, on Jun 21 2010, 04:55 PM, said:

Holding

Scoring: MP

Partner opens 1S.
Playing 2/1 and 1NT forcing do you pass or bid 1NT.

Thank you

---

It's a systemic issue. If you don't have designs for responder to sign off easily after 2NT or reverse, you should pass most marginal hands with 5 HCP over partner's 1 level openings. Still, those sign offs may affect your accuracies in constructive bidding. I actually don't have much feelings either way. When you respond with 4 or 5 card major 4-5 HCPs over partner's opening, you may certainly hit goldmines if he has a super maximum. Still, very often, you may find yourself in an unmakable game or 3M, or 2NT.

[bluecalm]

Quote

Poland was the one I was thinking of

I confirm. I was taught to play that way and most very good players play that way here. They all learnt form the same books and are not changing. I changed my hard learned views after seeing how the elite plays. Passing those 5-6hcp or even 7hcp hands is one of the weaknesses of polish club. It's just too easy to for the opponents to play against but if you respond you don't have good mechanism to stop low.
Poland have very strange bridge culture, things which are popular here are not popular anywhere else. I think we are way behind the elite when it comes to bidding theory.

[the hog]

rogerclee, on Jun 24 2010, 04:29 PM, said:

I think most players would concede that there are regions of the world where this is a normal pass and there are regions of the world where this is a normal 1N. The_Hog, I don't know why you need to be so dogmatic about it.

Roger, I agree with you. However if you read some of the other posts it is hardly I who am being dogmatic.