[gnasher]

hanp, on Jun 21 2010, 03:55 PM, said:

Ah I see, I wrote "with" where it obviously should have been "without". I hope that was clear as I was reacting to your 5-card suit without secondary honors.

OK. It wasn't clear that that was what you meant, because my first example contained one secondary honour and one primary honour, and there were no brackets around "5-card minor with secondary honors".

I don't really think the nature of partner's honour holdings is that important, since in the scenario I'm talking about I have the bulk of our strength. What really matters is that I have loads of secondary honours, two of them in RHO's suit.

We can give partner a whole pack of secondary honours, if you like: xx Qxx QJ10xx Qxx. Or just lots of honours in his own suit: xx xxx AQJ10x xxx. In both cases I still prefer 2♠ to 3♦.

[Apollo81]

I'd pass.

I'm guessing that by bidding or doubling we go for 800/1100 about as often as we get to an otherwise unreachable making game. At total points, I think it needs to be more like 65-35 to justify bidding/doubling. On some hands where we have a making game, partner may be able to balance/overcall/preempt.

[junyi_zhu]

Bbradley62, on Jun 20 2010, 04:58 AM, said:

Scoring: Total Points

RHO deals and opens 1S.

---

1NT, if you get doubled, you should have a good run-out structure. For this hand, 1NT looks better than double because it shows your general strength and shape well. Of course some may play 16-18 1NT, then they have to balance with some rather light values, and they may easily get stolen if responder bids on with not very much. Perhaps in the future, 1NT overcalls can be as low as good 14 I guess, since so many players tend to open and respond without much.

[awm]

hanp, on Jun 21 2010, 09:47 AM, said:

Quote

I don't really get the argument about double being "safer."

I'm very surprised by this comment. My bridge experience tells me that we'll go for a number after 1NT much more often than after a double.

My experience is the opposite of this. Perhaps some of it is that I've had a lot of auctions where 1NT is doubled for penalty and we successfully run to a two-level suit contract which opponents fail to double (or which actually makes). If your tendency is to virtually always sit for 1NTX then you may get different results.

While some opponents double 1NT substantially lighter than they redouble, I'm not really sure why this is. The 1NT bid shows a stronger hand -- why should we need less to penalize a stronger opponent? In fact I've seen a lot of the doubles of 1NT on marginal hands lead to 1NTX making. It really seems like the belief that double is "safer" is relying on opponents not to know how/when to penalize rather than any technical merit.

Even accepting that people double 1NT for penalty on many hands where they won't redouble, if you overcall 1NT and LHO doesn't double you are very likely to be safe. People definitely do not reopen after 1♠-1NT-P-P very aggressively; I have seen many hands on these forums where opener had extras but the suggested action after 1♠-1NT-P-P was pass.

On the other hand, even if LHO doesn't redouble you are definitely not out of the soup after your double. There are many auctions like 1♠-X-P-2bid-X-All pass or 1♠-X-P-2bid-P-P-X-All pass. There are also auctions where partner mistakenly competes, like 1♠-X-2♠-3bid-X. I've actually gone for a number after a takeout double (even a perfectly normal takeout double) quite a few more times than after a 1NT overcall.

[whereagles]

It's an honest 15, but I have a bad feeling about this, so I will PASS.

[jdonn]

Awm is still making argument after argument that I completely disagree with. Gnasher is still giving example hands where he wants to defend 2♠ but I can't imagine partner passing over a 1NT overall and 2♠ raise. I honestly don't know where to go from here.

[bluecalm]

I dbl. I think it's too weak a hand for 1NT.
I can live with overcalling 1NT though.

I agree that dbl is much safer than 1NT. People just auto double every 8 count while they need 10+ for redoubling.
I also don't see how running to the best suit is difficult after dbl. Partner will bid his 5carder, 4♥ or better minor in that order. No problems here.

[gnasher]

jdonn, on Jun 23 2010, 12:07 AM, said:

Gnasher is still giving example hands where he wants to defend 2♠ but I can't imagine partner passing over a 1NT overall and 2♠ raise.

Yes, I think my examples have talked me into passing. I expect a 1NT overcall to work out well only if we get to play there opposite a smattering of points. It will probably be bad if partner moves, partner competes over a raise, or partner has a poor hand. That seems too narrow a target to aim at.

Quote

I honestly don't know where to go from here.

Well, you could join in the construction game and show us some hands where you think a takeout double will work well.

[Codo]

As always many strong opinions, but this time I disagree with my British hero. I would double and I always thought that I am one of the most off shape double haters on earth.

And of course doubling 1 Nt is much easier then nailing you after XX.

[hanp]

gnasher, on Jun 23 2010, 02:46 AM, said:

jdonn, on Jun 23 2010, 12:07 AM, said:

Gnasher is still giving example hands where he wants to defend 2♠ but I can't imagine partner passing over a 1NT overall and 2♠ raise.

Yes, I think my examples have talked me into passing. I expect a 1NT overcall to work out well only if we get to play there opposite a smattering of points. It will probably be bad if partner moves, partner competes over a raise, or partner has a poor hand. That seems too narrow a target to aim at.

Quote

I honestly don't know where to go from here.

Well, you could join in the construction game and show us some hands where you think a takeout double will work well.

I'd say it should be easy to cook up hands where partner will bid 4H and make it if we double, but we won't bid at all if we pass now.

[hanp]

bluecalm, on Jun 22 2010, 06:16 PM, said:

I dbl. I think it's too weak a hand for 1NT.
I can live with overcalling 1NT though.

I agree that dbl is much safer than 1NT. People just auto double every 8 count while they need 10+ for redoubling.
I also don't see how running to the best suit is difficult after dbl. Partner will bid his 5carder, 4♥ or better minor in that order. No problems here.

Actually, I agree that we would get to 2H but not as quickly.

If our double gets redoubled partner should pass with 2 4-card suits. We can then bid 1NT to ask partner to bid his cheapest. If partner bids 2C we can bid 2D, and if partner bids 2D we can bid 2H. That way we always get to hearts when partner has 4 hearts and a 4-card minor.

[jdonn]

gnasher, on Jun 23 2010, 02:46 AM, said:

Quote

I honestly don't know where to go from here.

Well, you could join in the construction game and show us some hands where you think a takeout double will work well.

Not particularly tempting, sorry.

[phil_20686]

If you start with a double and the auction goes something like


1s x 2s 3d
p/3S ?

are you not end played into passing when you could easily be making game? At least 1NT avoids that (quite serious) pitfalls. (I consider it endplayed as where i live bidding 3n now would show a hand too strong to bid 1NT initially). Things are a little better if your play lebensophl over 4th seat interference like here, but that means giving up the scrambling 2N which is also pretty useful. I also think that dble can be a nightmare when partner is say 5-4 in the minors and decideds to bid 2N to scrable over 2s and you end up in your 4-3.

I thought dble was much worse than 1n or passing, but i have had few sucesses entering here with marginal 1nt overcalls, particularly when my spade stop is so susceptible to a simple duck