[quiddity]

gnasher, on Jun 20 2010, 06:56 AM, said:

That covers the hands where partner has four hearts. If he doesn't, 1NT is far more likely to be the right spot than two of a minor. And I wouldn't particualrly want to hear him compete to three of a minor over 2♠.

Why? Is it that partner is unlikely to have a 5-card minor, or do you prefer NT to the 8-card minor fit?

[gnasher]

If I double, he should compete to three of a minor with something xx xxx A10xxx Qxx. Do I want that?

If he doesn't have a five-card minor but does have 4-4 in the minors and a smattering of points, he'll make a responsive double. What am I going to do then?

[hanp]

gnasher, on Jun 20 2010, 01:12 PM, said:

If I double, he should compete to three of a minor with something xx xxx A10xxx Qxx. Do I want that?

If he doesn't have a five-card minor but does have 4-4 in the minors and a smattering of points, he'll make a responsive double. What am I going to do then?

I think the answers are clearly "no" and "bid 2NT", but you probably knew that.

I think that if you double, LHO bids 2S and partner has a competitive hand without a 4-card heart suit or a 5-card minor with secondary honors, double is likely to work out less well than passing.

[peachy]

I play 15+ to 18- overcall NT. For me this is not a good 15, it could easily be seen as 14 1/2. The choice is between Dbl and Pass. I Dbl and let partner make all decisions thereafter.

[aguahombre]

peachy, on Jun 20 2010, 04:26 PM, said:

I play 15+ to 18- overcall NT. For me this is not a good 15, it could easily be seen as 14 1/2. The choice is between Dbl and Pass. I Dbl and let partner make all decisions thereafter.

based on his knowledge of your takeout double shape.

[gnasher]

hanp, on Jun 20 2010, 07:39 PM, said:

I think that if you double, LHO bids 2S and partner has a competitive hand without a 4-card heart suit or a 5-card minor with secondary honors, double is likely to work out less well than passing.

I think that understates it.

Let's try giving him primary honours, and length opposite our secondary honour as well: xx xxx Axx A10xxx. I still don't want him to compete to 3♣ (though I wouldn't mind his raising my 1NT overcall).

Or let's give him four hearts: xx K109x Axxx xxx will look like quite a nice hand to him, but we'd still rather be defending 2♠.

[peachy]

aguahombre, on Jun 20 2010, 05:54 PM, said:

peachy, on Jun 20 2010, 04:26 PM, said:

I play 15+ to 18-  overcall NT.  For me this is not a good 15, it could easily be seen as 14 1/2.  The choice is between Dbl and Pass. I Dbl and let partner make all decisions thereafter.

based on his knowledge of your takeout double shape.

Please explain.

[aguahombre]

I only meant that it is hard for partner to "make all the decisions thereafter", when the double gave him little or no clue about your distribution.

Whatever decisions he does make will probably not allow for the possibility that you have a 1NT hand.

[jdonn]

I would double and don't see what the big deal is, 1NT looks way too risky on this "15 count" I'd much prefer pass to that. If 1NT were to get doubled I think I would throw up on my shoes.

Maybe it's me but lots of the arguments made lately on the forums seem strange to me. If I double I don't feel partner must compete on a 2353 6 count (although he might and then that might be fine), whereas If I bid 1NT and they raise I don't think he is possibly selling out on a nice 2443 7 count.

[awm]

I don't really get the argument about double being "safer."

In either case you can't play a contract below 1NT (since the opening was 1♠). In either case opponents have a call that shows values (double of 1NT or redouble over 1♠X) and "trains the guns" for further penalty doubles.

Maybe your opponents don't know how/when/where to penalize, but it seems like their opportunities to do so are roughly the same in both auctions. Bidding 1NT makes it more likely that we play in 1NT rather than a 4-3 (or 5-3) minor suit fit, at the cost of missing some 4-4 heart fits. Double also creates some issues when partner has a balanced hand opposite -- it seems like we could easily miss a game if partner advances 1NT on 10-11 hcp, or play a silly 2NT if partner advances 1NT on 6-7 hcp and we raise, or play a ridiculous partial if partner is disallowed from bidding 1NT on 6-7 hcp and instead bids a four (or even three!) card minor suit.

I'd overcall 1NT, keeping in mind that if doubled, I have methods allowing me to reach a good two-level fit when one exists. Obviously this is not totally safe (could go for a number) but I don't see it as any more dangerous than double, and pass has its own risks (chiefly missing a game).

[jdonn]

awm, on Jun 20 2010, 11:21 PM, said:

In either case you can't play a contract below 1NT (since the opening was 1♠). In either case opponents have a call that shows values (double of 1NT or redouble over 1♠X) and "trains the guns" for further penalty doubles.

Doubling 1NT has a lower minimum than redouble and is also made on more shapes by most players. Also in only one case can we play 2♣ or 2♦ (unless 1NT is doubled of course).

Quote

Bidding 1NT makes it more likely that we play in 1NT rather than a 4-3 (or 5-3) minor suit fit, at the cost of missing some 4-4 heart fits.

I don't see why 5-3 minor suit fits are mentioned in parentheses as though they are some sort of unlikely afterthought. They are likely and they matter.

[peachy]

aguahombre, on Jun 20 2010, 10:31 PM, said:

I only meant that it is hard for partner to "make all the decisions thereafter", when the double gave him little or no clue about your distribution.

Whatever decisions he does make will probably not allow for the possibility that you have a 1NT hand.

I *don't* have a 1NT hand. If I did, I would have bid 1NT.

[gszeszycki]

This hand has a decent amount of trick taking potential (behind opening bidder) but need p to have several entries to take advantage of the situation. If we are going to play the hand we will probably be best served by getting p to bid their longest suit to increase the number of entries. I am not ashamed of any side suit and the known long suit with opps makes nt far less appealing (unless p can bid it).

I choose x

[P_Marlowe]

1NT.

But we play fairly light 1NT overcalls.

For most, this hand is most likely too weak for a direct 1NT, so you have
to make a T/O.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Fluffy]

MY aversion towards 1NT is not going for a number in 1NT, it is playing a hopeless game, in 3NT or 4♥.

[pooltuna]

jdonn, on Jun 20 2010, 10:44 PM, said:

I would double and don't see what the big deal is, 1NT looks way too risky on this "15 count" I'd much prefer pass to that. If 1NT were to get doubled I think I would throw up on my shoes.

Maybe it's me but lots of the arguments made lately on the forums seem strange to me. If I double I don't feel partner must compete on a 2353 6 count (although he might and then that might be fine), whereas If I bid 1NT and they raise I don't think he is possibly selling out on a nice 2443 7 count.

I agree with you. As for your other remarks I really thought I hadn't been posting enought but guess I was wrong

[hanp]

Quote

I don't really get the argument about double being "safer."

I'm very surprised by this comment. My bridge experience tells me that we'll go for a number after 1NT much more often than after a double.

If we overcall 1NT, LHO will double on very many more hands than after we double. For example, LHO will double 1NT on a 10-count with a 6-card suit, or with 3-card support for spades, while after a double LHO will often bid his suit or find a raise.

Also, after 1NT gets doubled, partner will often pass, not knowing that we have anywhere to run, while after 1S - Dbl - Rdbl, partner and I both know that we are looking for our best fit, and also, partner knows that we have 3 or 4 hearts, with 4 being more likely. After 1S - Dbl - Rdbl we will often land in our best fit, while after 1S-1NT- Dbl we don't even know whether we should stay in 1NT or look for a fit.

I didn't think of this before, so maybe my arguments didn't come out as clearly as they could have. But somehow I am very sure that doubling 1S is safer than bidding 1NT, and I'm surprised that any bridge player could have different experiences.

[hanp]

I now see jdonn said pretty much the same but in other words.

[hanp]

gnasher, on Jun 20 2010, 05:57 PM, said:

hanp, on Jun 20 2010, 07:39 PM, said:

I think that if you double, LHO bids 2S and partner has a competitive hand without a 4-card heart suit or a 5-card minor with secondary honors, double is likely to work out less well than passing.

I think that understates it.

Let's try giving him primary honours, and length opposite our secondary honour as well: xx xxx Axx A10xxx. I still don't want him to compete to 3♣ (though I wouldn't mind his raising my 1NT overcall).

Ah I see, I wrote "with" where it obviously should have been "without". I hope that was clear as I was reacting to your 5-card suit without secondary honors.

[neilkaz]

hanp, on Jun 21 2010, 09:50 AM, said:

I now see jdonn said pretty much the same but in other words.

I agree with you and jdonn in this thread and prefer double to 1NT and would like a hand with more trick taking promise for a 1NT overcall.