[Stephen Tu]

Also, non-game bids after 3♦ are forcing, right? Only way to stop in partial is pass?

[Little Kid]

Quant for me, would go via 4♦ to rkc. I would assume anything but pass is GF.

[mohitz]

Quant for me also.

[P_Marlowe]

RKCB.

If we assume, that a quant. 4NT is based on at least 2 diamonds,
we have a fit for diamons, so I dont see the reason to play 4NT as
quantitative, if we belong in 6NT we will be able to find this out in
time.

And yes - if we bid on, we are playing at least game.

With kind regards
Marlowe

PS: It may be different, if you play Minorwood, but even than I would
prefer a different meaning to 4NT than quantitative.

[TylerE]

RKC if not playing minorwood.
Obv. quant if you have another keycard bid.

[Jlall]

Stephen Tu, on Jun 4 2010, 01:11 PM, said:

Also, non-game bids after 3♦ are forcing, right? Only way to stop in partial is pass?

Yes everything (including 3S) is forcing, and 4N is quant. However if you have not discussed this auction be aware that 99 % of people at least would take it as keycard. If you're ever playing with jdonn though, he'll know whats up!

[jjbrr]

Ya playing with a random I would expect him to be wanting to know my keycards for sure, and if i bid it i'd expect to get some response at the 5-level.

playing with a non-random, this is quantitative. Agree everything is forcing below game.

[Phil]

Kind of like playing with a random I would expect

1♠ - 1N
3♠ - 4♣

is a suit, not a control.

Agree that 4N is quantitative.

[H_KARLUK]

Quantitative but w/o agreement RKC diamonds

[peachy]

Playing with random partner, expect all 4NT to be Blackwood or RKC, whether trump has been agreed or not. But this particular auction should be clear enough even to a random as an invite when there are multitudes of forcing bids and raise available between 3D and 4NT.

[kgr]

Quant.
Because I can set ♦'s in a forcing way.

[MarkDean]

Definitely quant for me.
This is really easy in two of my partnerships where we agreed there is no way to ask key cards in a minor.

[jillybean]

Quantitative but expect a KC response
In my partnership 4♦ asks for keycards here.

[jdonn]

Jlall, on Jun 4 2010, 02:18 PM, said:

Stephen Tu, on Jun 4 2010, 01:11 PM, said:

Also, non-game bids after 3♦ are forcing, right?  Only way to stop in partial is pass?

Yes everything (including 3S) is forcing, and 4N is quant. However if you have not discussed this auction be aware that 99 % of people at least would take it as keycard. If you're ever playing with jdonn though, he'll know whats up!

Lol Justin is talking about practically the first live hand we ever played together in Reno we bid

1♦ 1♠
2♣ 2♥
3♣ 4NT

and I knew it was natural. But with almost anyone else I take it as rkc even though I know it shouldn't be simply because I expect that's how they take it.

[aguahombre]

Ok, assuming the exact auction makes 4NT quant. What would be the expert follow-ups? Certainly there must be some subtleties, other than just accept or not.

If one does not pass 4NT, do they answer aces anyway, show an extra trick source, what? What we do kind of sucks so I won't put it out there, but at least we do something.

[CSGibson]

The OP is awesome, I'm assuming there was a disaster where someone bid 4♦, attempting to set trump so that 4N would be keycard after a cue-bid, and then the opener passed the 4♦ bid.

The subsequent discussion of the hand was something like the 4♦ bidder explaining his reasoning, and opener stating "if you wanted to ask for key cards, bid 4N", followed by the inevitable "4N is quantitative", and disagreement ensued, thus, poll.

As for what the bids mean, and whether follow-ups after 3♦ are forcing, I'd say it depends on your agreements, and that there is no single standard way to play it, but I prefer the 4N quant, 4♦ forcing method, personally.

[Little Kid]

Quote

Ok, assuming the exact auction makes 4NT quant. What would be the expert follow-ups? Certainly there must be some subtleties, other than just accept or not.

After something like 1NT-4NT it definitely seems like you should have a way to find the best strain for slam. Maybe bidding 5-card suits at the 6-level as Pass/Correct and 5NT as asking for 4-card suits. This still leaves the 5-level open for things like keycards or ways to distinguish between suit quality. I have no idea what is standard here and would be curious to find out too and more specifically this kind of auction.

[Cascade]

Jlall, on Jun 5 2010, 07:18 AM, said:

If you're ever playing with jdonn though, he'll know whats up!

And I thought he was one in a million.

[Jlall]

CSGibson, on Jun 5 2010, 01:46 PM, said:

As for what the bids mean, and whether follow-ups after 3♦ are forcing, I'd say it depends on your agreements, and that there is no single standard way to play it, but I prefer the 4N quant, 4♦ forcing method, personally.

Im fine with saying there is no standard for what 4N means, or even that standard is that it's keycard, but I cannot imagine any reasonable definition of "standard" where 3S and 4D are not forcing bids.

[gnasher]

aguahombre, on Jun 5 2010, 07:07 PM, said:

Ok, assuming the exact auction makes 4NT quant.  What would be the expert follow-ups?  Certainly there must be some subtleties, other than just accept or not.

New suits and responder's major are cue-bids, suggesting that diamonds be trumps and, presumably, the possibility of a grand slam. 5♦ is to play.

Quote

If one does not pass 4NT, do they answer aces anyway

Giving a Blackwood response to what's known to be a natural 4NT isn't particularly useful - if you're so short of aces that you're worried, you're unlikely to have an acceptance of the invitation anyway.

If, on the other hand, you're prone to misunderstandings about 4NT, it's a good idea to agree that suit responses to a an invitational 4NT are Keycard responses for the most likely suit. That saves you from UI problems when your partner explains your natural 4NT as Keycard.